The Journey of Destreaming: Reflections and Insights - E136

In this episode, we are discussing the challenges and successes that we have experienced with  destreaming in our classrooms. Specifically, we'll chat about the new grade 9 English curriculum, continuing efforts with other destreaming program areas,  and how to best support teachers that are implementing destreaming.
 
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Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/136**

• Challenges and experiences we have had with implementing destreaming in our schools, specifically in grade 9 English, science, and math
• The importance of providing support and resources for teachers during the implementation process 
• Challenges include lack of time and resources given to educators
• Need for additional support in grade 10 courses to ensure a smooth transition from destreaming to academic streams
• Additional pressures with teaching a new grade 11 curriculum (NBE course) 
• Other episodes on destreaming:
  • Getting Ready for Destreaming - E081
  • Destreaming Education: Our Two Cents - E048

Transcript

Rachel: 0:40

In this episode, we are revisiting de streaming and giving you a bit of an update on where we are now.

Katie: 0:47

We will share the ups and downs of the de streaming process and some of the great things that are happening in our schools.

Rachel: 0:53

Let's get started. This week, Katie and I are revisiting the topic of de streaming because lots has happened since we last spoke about this on the podcast. And uh, yeah, we're just gonna get right into it.

Katie: 1:15

Yes, so um, for those educators in Ontario, I'm sure you are aware, but this year we introduced the grade 9 English de streamed curriculum and then science and math in the past. What? Last year? Was that your first year?

Rachel: 1:30

Science was last year and then math was the year before. So we've been in Ontario doing de streaming for a couple of years now. Mm hmm.

Katie: 1:39

and so then we're just single streaming, so academic programming for the remaining grade 9 courses. And it's been an interesting journey so far, so I haven't been on the receiving end or, you know, it hasn't affected my curriculum area or leadership area as of yet until September, so it's been a really kind of interesting shift and it's fascinating to watch it unfold.

Rachel: 2:02

Now, before we get into it and get into, I guess, you know, what we're seeing, the challenges we're facing, you know, how to really sort of build that program. I, I just want to mention the other episodes that we talked about de streaming is episode 81 as well as episode 48. So they're kind of far back actually in terms of our podcast, which is kind of cool, but yeah, definitely a topic we need to talk about because lots has happened since we last chatted.

Katie: 2:32

Yes, and just as a disclaimer, I am all for de streaming. I really am. I'm, I think it's something that's needed and I think it really does benefit more students than not and keeps options open for longer. So I'm actually happy with the concept of de streaming. I think it's like a timing thing for me. Like for me, it's Why do we get a curriculum at the end of June that we're expected to implement in September when staffing doesn't even finish until end of August, and how do you do that?

Rachel: 2:59

Yeah, and it was very similar in terms of our experiences with science. We didn't get our curriculum until almost the end of the previous school year, and then we had to just jump right in in September. And last year? kind of reflecting back on it, it went well. Like, it went well for our first year of implementation, and I'm quite pleased with where we got to. But, man, it was, it was a lot of work. It was a lot of us making mistakes and figuring things, things out as we went.

Katie: 3:29

Yes, totally. And I think that because you approached the course in a brand new way with modern classroom approach, I do think that's a lot of why you did experience so much success. And I do wonder how it fared in schools where perhaps there wasn't that total revamping of programming.

Rachel: 3:47

Yeah, I, I kind of wonder that as well. And I, I just saw it as the opportunity for like, hey, we've got Uh, new curriculum. I mean, it wasn't much different from previous curriculum for science, but you know, we got a new curriculum. We have a new initiative, new, a new why behind what we're teaching and how we're approaching it, that why not try something new? It was the perfect opportunity for change.

Katie: 4:12

It was, and it still is. And I think part of that now, you know, now that it's affecting the, the educators in my department, I'm kind of like, I feel terribly because I know they weren't given the time or resources to kind of roll this out. And there is some significant changes in grade nine English in terms of. The way we're looking at literacy, the, the right to read report and how that affects even how we teach reading. And kind of that trickle effect all the way through to these higher grades. So, there's been some, some pretty big changes. And it can be tough because when you're not getting the resources until so late in a school year, it's really hard to make sure that everybody is confident and comfortable and has time to to plan effectively to rule something out. In two months, but I, I do think they're doing what they can with it, but I think it's something that I see as we do what we can this year and let's build on best practices as we go.

Rachel: 5:09

It really is just winging it at this point. And it's, we, it's not because we want to wing it, or, I mean, it's basically a need. We've been put in this situation where you, you know, yeah, you are given not enough resources, not enough time, and it's like, here you go, you, you go do this in your classroom, and you can't really expect that that's going to be perfect the first time through.

Katie: 5:36

Yes, and I do think, you know, we did have that year of single streamed English. So academic English only. And I think there was a lot of learning that happened and a lot of things that we figured out that, Hey, this doesn't work anymore. How can we change it? So I do think we were already kind of on our way in terms of figuring out what are our next steps to support students. So in some ways, you know, maybe. We were better off than it could have been, because I know you didn't have that same experience of, you know, just single stream and then de streamed, but Yeah, it's been an interesting journey.

Rachel: 6:10

hmm.

Katie: 6:12

So I know boards are handling it differently, One thing that I think is, Maybe promising, I'm not sure, we haven't done any work yet, but our board does have people coming in to support grade 9 teachers in taking a look at strategies that work what are some more effective strategies that can be used with, within the de streamed curriculum, etc. So, I'm glad to see that our board is kind of taking it seriously and looking to help teachers.

Rachel: 6:39

I'm glad as well. I, I kind of wish that this support was put into place for, for math and science, especially, and when we went single stream last year, I think it's really challenging, especially for these uh, they're called instructional partners in our board for these instructional partners to now come in to programs that are de streaming that are So Kind of already established. So I, you know, we haven't had a chance in our department to work with them yet. I'm kind of interested to see where it goes and what sort of happens with that. But I really wish we had had the support last year.

Katie: 7:18

Yes. Now that is a ministry funding

Rachel: 7:20

Yes. Yeah. It's not our board. It's, it's ministry funding for

Katie: 7:24

Yes. But, but you're right because now we have year a year or two if you're in math of established practices and perhaps things are working really well, right?

Rachel: 7:34

Yeah, and I think, just kind of coming from my experience of doing coaching work for a couple years, like, that is a hard situation to come into, because there are going to be educators who are going to be like, well, what we're doing now, it's working, and it's working well, like, I feel like our department's program that we've built up is really good, that it, we're I don't know, I wouldn't say it's not necessarily that we're not open, it's just we're, we're already got a good thing going that I don't know how much we're going to be willing to change necessarily, maybe tweak and add, but you can't keep asking educators to add and add and add to what they're already doing when what they're already doing is taking up so much of their time, right? So I feel like they have a really tough position coming into this.

Katie: 8:22

Oh, 100%. And it also kind of makes me think of new teachers. Like, new teachers who are new to the practice, who are in a classroom, already trying to plan, and are super nervous about having other people see them. Because I remember those years, it was not easy. Like, even TPAs were the scariest thing that I ever had. It can be really hard to open up a classroom. There's a lot of... Anxiety and a lot of, I mean, I guess it's a lack of confidence in this uncertainty of am I good, am I not, I'm still learning, I'm still getting better.

Rachel: 8:53

It's that dreaded imposter syndrome coming out.

Katie: 8:56

yeah, it really is.

Rachel: 8:57

it's a very scary thing to open up your classroom and allow someone else to come in.

Katie: 9:02

Very. And so it has to be dealt with quite sensitively. And so I'm hoping, and I don't know what the experiences have been so far. But I'm hoping that um, it's done in. A very positive way.

Rachel: 9:14

Yeah,

Katie: 9:15

Like gentle.

Rachel: 9:16

you're always treading a very fine line as a coach because you know, like other practices that might benefit or you might see something when you're in a classroom and go, Oh my goodness, if they just did this one other thing and built on what they're already doing, like it would be amazing. But you have to And it's like teaching, right? You have to build the relationships first. Coaching is so based on relationships and trust. If you do not trust your coach, you're not going to listen to your coach. And so asking somebody to do something without that trust there is just going to create more barriers and more blocks and And a lot of tension. So finding that way in and treading that line very, very gently and starting small and like little steps, you know, there's so much that goes into it. I, I actually don't envy what position they're in. And when I saw the posting come up for her board for these uh, coaching positions, I thought about it for like, And then I'm like, nope. That is going to be a very hard thing to do. And uh, well, like I'm really happy in the classroom too and being back there. So, I kinda kinda just went, nope, I'm good.

Katie: 10:31

No, and I would be afraid, like, because all of the work you're doing, if you were to leave, would it disappear? Would it stop?

Rachel: 10:38

And that's the big thing. So with de streaming, like we're year two now into our science program, and last year, my sort of position going into it is, if I am asking my people to do all of these changes, and to like really do a big 180 in terms of how we approach our instruction and delivery of our program, I need to be in the weeds with everyone. So I taught grade 9 science. I, I had four sections of it last year. So two thirds of my teaching load was grade 9 science, which was very different for me too, but I've taken a step back this year. And I am not teaching grade nine science this year. I'm kind of more supporting from the side and making sure that I'm still in there in the conversations, in the meetings that they're having and trying to still really take on as much of a hands on approach as I can. But I, I, I'm not in that grade nine classroom anymore. So it's, it's kind of been interesting.

Katie: 11:35

Yes. But now, you worked with others, so are those same teachers still in there as well?

Rachel: 11:40

Yeah, so I tried to, when I was um, timetabling for this year, I, I kept it very intentional. So, my core set of teachers where we developed the program last year, pretty much all of them are teaching grade 9 again this year. And, like, they wanted to because we had put so much blood, sweat, and tears into developing this program. Like, who wants you know, you kind of want another year now to like build and grow in it. And I don't know, to even kind of take a breath, right, and have a year where it's like, okay, I did all this planning and now the next year I can rely on that planning and start, you know, tweaking and doing some smaller things and kind of get a bit of a breath of fresh air. So I do have lots of established teachers, but I do have some new teachers who have joined in as well. And so bringing them up to speed and, with all of the things that we're doing has been, has been some work

Katie: 12:35

Mm hmm. Mm And has the grade, like, have the grade ten teachers noticed any difference, or do they notice any sort of challenges, or? Anything based on what grade 9 happened, what happened in grade 9.

Rachel: 12:46

Yeah. You know, I think they are, and I think the challenges are being seen in our academic stream, like not our, our pre IB stream is, is fine. It's, it's what it is because basically they're not really de streamed anyway, but that's, I'm not going to go down that path and talk about that and why, why I kind of take issue with that. But um, our academic stream, I think it's kind of noticing that maybe some students are, are kind of misplaced at that point because the whole sort of purpose of de streaming is giving the students the confidence to try. And to try the academic stream and not shut down any pathways, but grade 10 science, and, and now that it's academic is significantly more challenging that, uh, there are quite a few more students struggling. So I think the grade 10 teachers, and I know this happened for math as well, like they need more support now with like, well, what strategies can we change? And how can we change our approach to support those academic students in transitioning from our de streaming to our. Um, And still successful.

Katie: 13:57

That's interesting. I never, but that, I wonder if that's something to bring up even board level and say, hey, you have these people who are coaching and helping. Can we also include grade 10? Especially for like specific subject areas where like that content and skills that are, that are learned are really kind of key for that next grade.

Rachel: 14:16

And like I said, I think us as a department, like, yes, we still need to change and we still need to do things, you know, keep working on our de streaming program. But I think what we developed is pretty good. Like, it's pretty good for ensuring that our students are successful in grade nine. But. Now, like, they are, but possibly some of them are struggling in grade 10. And so we need that support. Like, how do you support that transition from de streaming to an academic stream?

Katie: 14:45

And it also makes me wonder, what can we do differently in grade 10 courses to make content accessible to all students?

Rachel: 14:52

and, and that's kind of a big thing as well, because we've done modern classrooms. A lot of our students are now getting into grade 10, and they're like, what? We don't get to, to, to try this test a couple times? We're not doing mastery checks, we're not, like, so they're, they're asking a lot of questions, understandably, because of their experience in grade 9, so I know for sure we need to work on our continuum, and we need to work on our grade 10 program, and kind of, you know, just as a department, we're, we're just kind of going status quo at the moment, but I, I think it's sort of, becoming really apparent that that's where we need to do some work.

Katie: 15:31

Well, there's something to be said about having these check ins to make sure kids have the skills before, you know, big tests. So, there, there is that huge difference between traditional teaching methods and something that is all about check ins and mastering skills and, yeah.

Rachel: 15:46

Yeah, so I almost think it's not even about making your grade 9 D Streamed program successful. It's about how do we then support those transitions to grade 10 and further?

Katie: 15:55

Yeah, and how can we get students to, to not be so afraid of academic courses after these grade 90 streamed where we are putting all of these supports into place?

Rachel: 16:06

Yeah. it's almost like the supports are just kind of dropping off. You're right though. I think the, our, our coaches, our instructional partners, like, that's probably more where their time is better spent. If I'm being quite honest.

Katie: 16:19

Yes, especially for programs that are established. So instead of looking at, unless there are struggles, Like, if you have a strong grade 9 D stream program, instead of focusing on that program, it should be in the grade 10 kind of portion to address some of those gaps.

Rachel: 16:34

Yeah.

Katie: 16:35

Interesting.

Rachel: 16:36

know, maybe when we start working with them I'll bring it up and suggest it and say that that's where, as a school, we are struggling and we need support more so than our grade nine program.

Katie: 16:46

Yeah, let me know.

Rachel: 16:49

Anyway, talk to me about English. So how's it going so far? We're, we're a couple months or a month or so into the school year.

Katie: 16:56

So English has been interesting. Um, There's been a lot of changes. We also have a lot of new staff and new teachers. So, and LTOs and all that good stuff. So it's, it's kind of a bit of a mishmash in terms of kind of consistency from year to year of people. One of our like key grade nine teachers was actually pulled to work on one of these teams. And so,

Rachel: 17:17

Oh, no.

Katie: 17:19

Yes. Oh, no, it's correct. And so um, that meant we're bringing in, LTO, so a new teacher who's brand new, hasn't really had a chance to look at the curriculum and so it's been interesting. But they are trying, so there is this movement away from core novels. More choice there's, there's this whole section of the curriculum that's more focused on foundations of language, so looking more at, you know, the little pieces of words and the sounds they make and how we can build awareness, prefixes, suffixes, how we make sense of the language around us in more complex texts. It, it's interesting and, and from like a language acquisition and literacy acquisition standpoint, which is my area of, I don't know, nerdy passion. I find it fascinating, but I know not everybody does. And I know English grammar because of all of the languages that I learned. So French, Italian, Spanish in high school, and then my degree in Spanish. And so my confidence with English grammar is only because of my own learning processes. and so I love it, but not everybody does, and not everybody can identify it with it all. And so there is this return to understanding all of these grammatical concepts, but not everybody is there, because in my high school experience, I never had formal English grammar taught to me.

Rachel: 18:37

I don't ever recall having it taught to me either. And honestly, you could say like adjectives and nouns and like all of these things, and I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know what they are.

Katie: 18:49

Yeah, so it is kind of a bit of a mind shift, because we always think about, correcting when, It comes up. You know what I mean? So if we notice grammar errors, it's an opportunity to kind of go over a concept and, and correct it. Comma use, all that good stuff. But um, there really is a focus on the teaching of it explicitly. And making sure students understand how all of the language fits together. It's fascinating.

Rachel: 19:13

modern classroom's it.

Katie: 19:15

Now that's, but that's a hard sell, right? Not everybody is. comfortable with

Rachel: 19:19

It is. I get it. And I get it. I, yeah.

Katie: 19:23

So I see this year as like a, let's get through it, let's figure it out, see how the pieces fit together. And then kind of just keep a document going of things that are working and not. Everyone has different teaching styles, so how can we improve for next year? And maybe these coaches will help see, help see other gaps in terms of approaches, etc. that our teachers can then start to use.

Rachel: 19:46

So, what are, what are some of the big challenges that you're seeing right now?

Katie: 19:50

Time. I know I always say time is a challenge. There really hasn't been, well there's been zero release time for our grade 9 teachers to actually break it all down. There was a writing team over the summer that developed resources, but when you're, when you're faced with a document or email full of hyperlinks, who has the time? To sit there and go through it all, when you're day to day in front of students and doing the everyday stuff that you have to do is very demanding. So, I, I know the idea was once the coaches get there, there's release time, but I almost wish there was additional release time at the beginning of the year to kind of give them time to focus on it and dissect it and break it apart and in course teams brainstorm it.

Rachel: 20:34

That was a big challenge we had in our first year, too, was time. And it was a very similar scenario, right? We had summer writing teams who created all these fabulous resources, but we just didn't have the release time to be able to sit down and look at them and use them and work on building our own program. Like, we were all doing it on our own time. And I think many of us felt pretty burnt out after the year.

Katie: 21:00

Yeah. Another challenge we have is that our building is under construction. We have so many renovations ongoing, and we don't have a library. So it's great to talk about student choice and voice and having them pick their own books, but we don't have a place for them to pick books from. Sure, we can take them to the Oakville Public Library down the street, but there's also things involved in terms of forms and being able to take them off school property, and it's a lot.

Rachel: 21:24

yeah, we have, we have lots of renovations going on in our buildings, too. That's, it's kind of interesting. So our elevator is being renovated and we started out our school year, because our workroom for science is right beside the elevator, we had no workroom for until like this past week, which is, as we're recording this, is the beginning of October. And English is not even back because they're, they're sort of where we are, but up on the third floor is not even back in there is at least for a few more weeks. Now, I felt it was science. Okay, I can only imagine what our English counterparts are feeling is that lack of cohesiveness because we were kind of just dispersed everywhere. not only do we have a lack of time, but we have a lack of, I guess, opportunities for collaboration to happen because we weren't even in the same workroom. So, I, I can only imagine what English is going through now with their first year of de streaming and also having that sort of wrench thrown into the whole sort of deal of trying to figure out this de streaming thing.

Katie: 22:28

Yes, and our other challenge is that we've introduced a new grade 11 curriculum. So we've replaced the ENG 3U and 3C courses, so college and university pathways, with the NBE course. So The First Nations Métis and Inuit Studies course, which is still a focus on all the same skills, but through kind of that lens of Indigenous voice and Indigenous literature and works. So, it's hard to balance the needs of both, especially for teachers that are teaching both. Like, how do you look at that and put the same amount of work into both courses?

Rachel: 23:03

I was gonna ask, do you have teachers who are teaching both? Wow. Mm hmm.

Katie: 23:06

Yes. and it's not easy to look at those needs and, and do both well. So, at least those teaching the NBE had more, like, preparation time for the most part. Some didn't find out they were teaching it until June because that's what happens when you timetable and staff. And, and so often I can't guarantee courses to anybody because it's all about where they fall. So, It is an interesting year with a variety of challenges and different priorities pulling us all over the map. So, it's really challenging, but I have to say that they're taking it so well, and in particular the MBE team who had time to kind of work together, they're hmm.

Rachel: 23:49

Yeah, and I think that's why we got through our grade nine year. Is because we all relied on each other and it was such a great team. It still is a great team, right? But we were all building resources together and sharing them together and all kind of taking on a piece of the work. So without that, wow, it would be so hard to do it all on your own.

Katie: 24:12

Yes. So I really wish that, in some ways I wish the, the ministry would say, Hey, we're going to be implementing curriculum, but we're going to give you a year to do some professional development about it before we actually start it.

Rachel: 24:24

Well, that would be nice.

Katie: 24:25

Wouldn't that be nice? I get, like, I, but I liked the idea of single streaming until we have the curriculum. We just needed more time with the actual curriculum itself.

Rachel: 24:35

Yeah, and like you, like, I have nothing against de streaming. I think it's fabulous. I love it. I love that it's affording students opportunities to go down pathways that might have traditionally been, cut off for them. So, de streaming and the concept of de streaming is needed. It is necessary. We saw even when we uh, in our first episode or our last couple episodes about the Grading for Equity book, like, streaming came from practices over 100 years ago and we need to get rid of them and we need this change. But it's, it's really, it puts educators in a very tough position to ask them to do this without giving them any time to do it well.

Katie: 25:17

Yeah, and I think that's one thing we take personally because we are so typically attacked by the public that we really do want to do our jobs well. We are not honestly, we would love to actually be able to know what we're teaching. So having a little bit more time would have been nice.

Rachel: 25:31

Yeah, I think that's my biggest beef too.

Katie: 25:33

But I'm hopeful. I really am. And we know the research shows that You know, even an extra year in academic or a pathway before you make that decision is good. And we're not pushing university for all students. Like, let's be clear, de streaming doesn't mean university is better. De streaming means those who maybe perhaps wouldn't graduate, or would drop out, or wouldn't be able to even be successful in college pathways. We're giving them time to actually build skills and confidence in high school to then go the pathway that they want for their future.

Rachel: 26:04

Yeah, it's such a big transition for students to throw pathway into there, too, is, is a lot. So, I agree. We need, the students need the year to figure things out and to figure out what pathway they want to

Katie: 26:18

hmm. Yes. And everybody has a right to try. And I think that's the biggest thing. So yes, are some kids perhaps not ready for academic in grade 10? Sure. But they have the right to try it and, and to kind of work through it and see maybe this I can do if I try different ways of learning and support systems and but figuring out what they want for themselves and not what other people are telling them they should want.

Rachel: 26:41

Yeah, I totally agreed. Okay, on that note, I think that's a good place for us to stop here today and wrap up our conversation. By no means are we done talking about de streaming because this is a learning process that is going to kind of continue for us for probably in the next few

Katie: 26:58

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Rachel: 26:59

Yeah, so uh, what we'll do is we'll include any of the links or resources we talked about here today in our show notes. You can access our show notes for this episode at edugals. com slash 136. That's edugals. com slash 136.

Katie: 27:16

And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to share it with a colleague or a friend. And don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss out on any future content.

Rachel: 27:25

And as always, we'd love to hear from you. So if you have thoughts on de streaming, how it's going, what challenges are you facing, we would love to hear them. You could go on to our flip at edugals. com slash flipgrid and leave us a video message there, or you can go on to our website at edugals. com and leave us a written reply.

Katie: 27:46

thanks for listening and see you next week.