Unpacking the Evolution of Schools and Grading - E134

This week, we are continuing our book study with chapter 2 of Grading for Equity: What It Is, Why It Matters, and How It Can Transform Schools and Classrooms by Joe Feldman. Specifically, we will dive into the history of schools and grading and examine what's changed and what's not changed (which is a lot!).

If you like what you hear, we would love it if you could share this episode with a colleague or friend. And make sure you subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new content! And consider supporting the show by buying us a coffee or two!

We would love to hear from you – leave a comment on our website OR check out our FLIPGRID!

Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/134**

• Chapter 1 - E130
• Changes in society that affected our model of school
  • Manufacturing - need for factory workers, prepare students to be good employees, critical thinking is highly valued now
  • Migration and Immigration - assimilation, movement from rural to urban, FNMI, history repeats itself
  • Intelligence Testing and Categorization - IQ tests used for streaming purposes, IQ tests not equitable, created barriers to pathways for students, de-streaming is beginning to address these inequities, college vs university pathway (college is much more career-focused which is great)
  • Progressive Educators - John Dewey was ahead of his time, he saw the inequities that existed and saw school as a way to improve position in society, other behaviourists (BF Skinner, Pavlov) - operant conditioning applied to our education system
• How did this impact schools?
  • Quiet vs noisy classrooms - humans are social, quiet is no longer as valued, mastery-based learning supports active and collaborative classrooms where all students are on task
  • Learning skills - not a lot of change, skills like following directions, punctuality are still highly valued
• History of Grading
  • Very descriptive and individualized and shifted to letter grades for efficiency reasons
  • Now we are returning to more descriptive and individualized feedback
  • Bell Curves - if grades fit within a bell curve, it means that the approach taken had no impact on student learning; instead, we want to see skews towards higher achievement to show a positive impact

Transcript

Rachel: 0:40

in this episode, we are chatting all about. What's changed and what really hasn't changed in terms of our schools and our greeting practices.

Katie: 0:50

We are returning to Grading for Equity by... Joe Feldman and talking about Chapter 2 and the history of education and movements that have impacted the system.

Rachel: 1:00

Let's get started. This week, we are back with Grading for Equity by Joe Feldman. And so we're going to take a bit of a deeper dive in chapter two this week, which is all on kind of the history of grading.

Katie: 1:21

Now this is a short chapter, but I have to say it's a powerful chapter in how much time I spent reflecting on schools today based on what I was reading of the history.

Rachel: 1:33

Yeah, it's really interesting. I've read this in a few different books. And so it's, uh, it's so interesting that Yes, well, many sort of practices that we do within schools have changed over the years. Grading really hasn't.

Katie: 1:49

No, and learning skills, while we have added to them, the ones that we seem to value the most haven't changed. And it's very fascinating and also eye opening. So, instead of talking around it, we're going to dive right in and we'll talk about what, uh, Joe Feldman kind of breaks down as to some of the important things that were happening in history when schools were kind of created in, I guess, the Um, And how we've got to where we are. So, one of the first changes, or big changes in society that he mentions, is manufacturing and the rise of manufacturing in society and how that created a need for how we teach and prepare people for the work world.

Rachel: 2:32

Yeah, and I've heard this in, in sort of lots of places, right, where, you know, our model of school as it is today was designed to produce kids as like really good factory workers. You know, it's an assembly line of teaching kids the skills that they need in order to be successful in that sort of work environment.

Katie: 2:52

Yeah, and it's looking at Skills that they need to be good at to be good employees versus good thinkers or good learners. And so it's, I believe some of those are, you know, being able to listen and understand kind of the, the chain of command, so to speak. routines, time, self regulation, things like that, which makes sense in a factory setting. But when I think of jobs today, those aren't necessarily the highest sought after skills anymore.

Rachel: 3:21

They're not, and really, those kind of jobs are the ones that... with AI coming up, like, they're the ones that are being replaced very quickly.

Katie: 3:30

Which is scary. So we still have a school system that is self regulation. Understand authority. Yeah, responsibility. and routines, right? Like one action, do things in a certain order, etc. And, and what are we preparing people for if these jobs are not going to exist?

Rachel: 3:47

Yeah, with, with AI and with everything that sort of happened in the past, I don't even like, six months of our educational landscape, like, the focus needs to be more on thinking, because, and critical thinking skills, because AI can't do that. And that is what we as humans are designed to do. And you know, that that sort of differentiates us from every other living thing on the planet is that we have the brains to be able to do these critical thinking skills. So why are we not preparing kids for that?

Katie: 4:21

The second. Migration and immigration. And I thought this was interesting, but it's totally accurate. So, kind of this mass rush to North America from Europe, etc. And how, you know, new wave of immigrants means we need to make sure we're educated in the same way and getting ready for society as we want it to be. And creating, in this context, Americans. and what that should look like, or, you know, similarly in Canada, Canadians, and what that should look like.

Rachel: 4:49

And then there was also the the migration of those who lived in rural sort of settings into more urban sort of cities, city settings as well.

Katie: 4:59

and it's looking at the needs of those cities and those places, and where people could fit. And where we wanted them to fit, based on who they are, what they look like, and where they come from.

Rachel: 5:10

Yeah, so our school settings, like, they are... Designed to basically, and, and as I sort of read this, I, I was thinking about, our First Nations and Métis, Indigenous perspectives, right? Because it's basically, how can we prepare our students for assimilation into Our society. And I don't know, that just sort of struck me when I read that and, and read about sort of this, this history of grading and, and schools

Katie: 5:38

and, and look at the systems we put in place to do that, especially for indigenous populations when we talk about residential schools, etc. Like, there was some definite, like, we want you to be a certain type of person. Let's educate you and get rid of what makes you different.

Rachel: 5:53

it really does. It, it is terrible, but it's like history repeats itself.

Katie: 5:57

Oh, yeah. Mm hmm.

Rachel: 5:58

And so when he sort of talking in this book about the migration and the immigration like that was in the early 19 hundreds. But then the Indian Act and and all of that history comes after that so it's kind of almost Repeating itself again.

Katie: 6:15

And we still do it in many ways. I

Rachel: 6:17

We do.

Katie: 6:18

I think boards are starting to recognize and make changes and try to embrace the many cultures and languages and differences that we have. But, I mean, it's still a very colonial system and we haven't really changed terribly much from when the system began.

Rachel: 6:34

Yeah, it was it I don't know that one just really made me reflect in terms of what schools were designed to do and then How we've changed and not changed

Katie: 6:45

The next, part that he talks about here is intelligence testing. and categorization. And I say it slowly because, I mean, I knew about intelligence testing and how we categorized people, but, um, as he continues to talk about it, I was like, oh, this makes me so angry.

Rachel: 7:01

it makes me angry too. And so like let's get into it IQ tests to begin with, they're not designed equitably whatsoever. The, the way that they were designed were so that, like the cultural contexts were based on white people and those higher in society that had more privilege. And so other groups of people were not doing as well on these IQ tests. And it wasn't because they didn't have the intelligence, it's just that they had so many barriers to entry on these IQ tests.

Katie: 7:36

Yes. And, The way it was going, like how you categorize people and create this hierarchy of who's most intelligent versus least, because it does exist. And I think we in many ways still have this issue. We then determine pathways for people, which then It's still based on, on skin color and race and where you're from and what languages you speak, whereby you're going to have white people in that, like high stream, even back then in education, it was still vocational level versus more academic or higher level. and we, I mean, we're moving away from that with de streaming, which makes me so happy, but we still have issues of streaming and. Those who fit the norm or, or understand what society, how society wants us to act and think and, and speak, tend to be the ones who get to maintain that higher level learning.

Rachel: 8:28

Yeah, so there was a big sort of period in time where they used IQ tests for streaming purposes which is nuts because those tests are so biased in in nature itself and even they use that sort of thing for then sorting students into different schools even in terms of where they're at and so I love that At least as a province now, we're starting this work of de streaming, even though it's challenging, for sure, you know, it's, it's necessary, we need to move away from streaming students, because even though we don't use IQ tests to stream students anymore, it's still happening where our, like, some of our minority groups are ending up in lower streams, for one reason or another.

Katie: 9:18

And research has shown, at least in Ontario and many of our boards, that those most likely to be affected by this are minority groups. Black students. So, I mean, this is, it's scary to me that we created a system that did this and we are fighting still over a hundred years later to get out of this system and it is a fight because not everybody is supportive of de streaming and, I know that it's a different way of approaching teaching, but look at the opportunities we're creating for all students. To have more time to develop and learn and choose a pathway based on their goals.

Rachel: 9:55

Now what I found really, really fascinating as I was reading this, John Dewey, when was he in education and an educator? Like around what time? It was a long time ago, wasn't it?

Katie: 10:06

It was, but he's talked about quite extensively in this chapter.

Rachel: 10:10

He is, and what I found so fascinating is how progressive of an educator he was, and how he was trying to take on this fight so many years ago, and how he already recognized those inequities that were present in things like streaming, and the way that we were doing grading, and, all of those things, like, You know, for example, he says, uh, like, that he recognized and saw institutional problems in society as being more about income inequity rather than race, like, he, he already knew it, but like, why did nobody listen to him?

Katie: 10:48

And he saw schools as a way to increase or move up in terms of social and economic positioning and moral development. But he saw it as a tool that people could use and yet the system was like, no, we don't want that.

Rachel: 11:02

No, I know. He, he had this vision, and it just, it never happened.

Katie: 11:07

No.

Rachel: 11:08

And that sort of made me really stop and it's like, you know, we need to continue the fight because it takes so long for, I guess, I don't know, those in charge to listen.

Katie: 11:21

and I think de streaming in some ways is going to help with that because let's be honest education is a way to secure yourself, you know, a better job, for example, which means you'll make a higher income. But, I mean, at the same time, the end goal seems to still get further and further away as we go. Because for a while there, it was all, you need university. And if we're streaming, et cetera, and moving this, I guess, finish line even further, it makes it so impossible, or feel impossible. I think we're, we're moving that a little bit, and that we're finally accepting college as a great pathway to great jobs. And great opportunities. But I still think we have a long way to go because there's still this belief that university is the one and only way.

Rachel: 12:04

I think so as well. And, yeah, there's, there's so many great college programs out there.

Katie: 12:09

Yeah. And in many ways I think there's a lot more realistic opportunities coming out of college where you're still going to make a lot of money versus university where you typically need something else after an undergrad. Mm

Rachel: 12:20

Oh, for sure. I think if, if I was doing it all over again, like, I almost feel like some of the college programs are things I would have picked over university.

Katie: 12:29

Well, they're fascinating to me. A lot of the programs that are available now, I was like, why couldn't that have been out there when I was going through it all?

Rachel: 12:37

Yeah, it's even like silly things like cyber security, right? Like, or, or, yeah, I'm sure there's going to be programs coming out all around AI and prompting and, and using that in careers. Like it's so much more career focused than universities are really sort of about the academics and just gaining a deeper understanding of knowledge, but besides engineering, I think they don't, yeah. really ever prepare you for a specific career,

Katie: 13:06

No, it's preparing you for another program that will help you get ready for a career. That's how I feel universities act right now. But that may not be the experience of many and that's okay. It's going to be different, but I do find that, you know, I've had family members do university and then go to college in order to actually prepare themselves and be marketable as an employee. and that I think is indicative of colleges now. I think you are more ready for work and you're more marketable.

Rachel: 13:35

Well, and there are some college programs that do require a university degree first. So, I know Human Resources, for example, is one of those, right? They require a university degree, and then you go and do Human Resources afterwards.

Katie: 13:48

It's fascinating to me.

Rachel: 13:49

They do talk about a couple of other contexts there. So things like progressive educators like talking about John Dewey's influence and You know, his vision versus the vision of creating factory workers essentially. And then they also talk about some of the other Psychologists that were more behaviorists and sort of focused around behaviorism. So those like Pavlov and BF Skinner talking about operant conditioning and all of all of that fun stuff, which I kind of I kind of love and I kind of learn love learning about because I love dogs and all of dog training and training your dog is very based on behaviorism, but it was applied to our education system as well.

Katie: 14:30

Yeah. It's creating people that will behave in a certain way that society and work wants Mm hmm.

Rachel: 14:41

Yeah, for sure. And, um, he, he does kind of then sort of dive into Well, here's all the context from the 20th century. But like, how did that have an impact on schools? And it's interesting to see that progression of how schools changed from that one room schoolhouse into the system that we have today.

Katie: 15:01

There was a section in the book, and I'm gonna read it because I think it, um, I didn't like it, but I knew it was true. and so here it is. Great stress is laid upon punctuality, regularity, attention, and silence as habits necessary through life for successful combination with one's fellow men in an industrial and commercial civilization. And what stood out to me there is particularly the silence, because I remember being in school, and if you weren't quietly working, the teacher would get mad and tell you to be quiet and get your work done. and I'm like, it's so interesting to me, because humans are so social, that silence was something that was valued, and I get it. But that's not valued anymore. That has shifted so much. I don't want a quiet classroom. I don't want my students to be silent. and it really kind of stood out to me.

Rachel: 15:50

it has shifted a lot. Now, I don't think it's shifted for all teachers, for sure. Because I, I know many classrooms, when I walk by in the hallways, it, they're so quiet in terms of what they're doing, or it's just the teacher, like it's, you know, the sage on the stage. Teacher talking, all the other students must be quiet. I was, um, Sitting in my classroom the other day and, you know, I have these moments where I just kind of sit back and I look out and watch what the students are doing and it just like warms my heart so much because I had students who were working on a challenge that I had given them. Like the ones that were kind of working on that. And then I had others who were ahead of pace a little bit and working on a group activity at the whiteboards and writing on the whiteboards and doing that. Had some students sitting with me doing mastery checks. I had like, it was just, it was so cool to look at. Out and it wasn't quiet whatsoever, but every single student was on task. Every single student was working on something related to our course. And there wasn't like even a single phone in sight and it was just so cool. Like it, it just, it warms my heart to see that.

Katie: 17:06

so just this past Friday we had three of our four ESL classes merged together in one space. And we were kind of, it was icebreakers. I wanted them to talk and there's always this awkward silence at the beginning. But by the end... It was so loud. And we were talking about our favorite songs and our favorite music and stuff like that. And so people were playing songs and dancing and singing along if they knew it. I had so many languages being sung across the classroom. Like, it was wild. And at one point, the vice principal was walking down the hall and was like, What is going on? And then when he realized it was the ESL class, he was like, what? Because normally, they're very quiet and shy and reserved and afraid to speak so much, especially so early in the semester. So, um, it was exciting. It was fun. And to me, that is, that is a good start to the school year.

Rachel: 17:55

It's a great start.

Katie: 17:57

Yeah.

Rachel: 17:57

so I, I think some of the behaviors that we look for in students, like some of them are changing and shifting. Some of them haven't changed though whatsoever. Like the punctuality, you know, I still think that's like highly, highly valued. And, oh, like rightly so, right? Like you don't want students being late for class, following directions. Those sort of things are still highly valued in our classroom and they haven't changed over many, many years.

Katie: 18:23

But I think there's a caveat to it. Like, when we talk punctuality, are we also talking due dates? Because sometimes in life, they aren't as rigid as we think they are. And it's still important to teach them How to complete work without a due date, or without that, because that's a skill too. and if life happens and, and they can't achieve deadlines, how, how are we preparing them in a way that's welcoming and realistic of the world around them?

Rachel: 18:47

So I think in the last sort of section of this chapter, he does talk about grading specifically and what that looked like, what as that sort of went along through this, and what I found Really kind of interesting is grading started as very descriptive, like it was conversations with families, written sort of feedback in terms of where the students are and where they're going and, and what they need to work on next. And it was very individualized. Now, because of the way, Manufacturing expanded and schools expanded and got bigger and bigger that became unrealistic to do because there were so many more students and so that's sort of when that letter grade was introduced and basically it was introduced as a way to be more efficient with communication of grades.

Katie: 19:39

And I do get that, but I also think it's promising that we're returning to more of a, Well, at least classroom based. This individualized and very student specific approach to feedback. Though we do still have to report on this grading scale, and I mean, in some ways I get it. There are education laws, there are things that we have to do. We do have a duty to kind of be consistent and, and have some sort of standard. uh, it's just how you get there.

Rachel: 20:04

I thought sort of one other part that he talked about was grading on a curve and grading with a bell curve. Now, we don't do that anymore, right? But the whole sort of discussion about bell curves and students grades should fit within a bell curve, I think that sort of still exists. And I think it was about... Maybe a couple years ago that I heard this or read this and I can't remember where I read it, but they talked about the fact that if you try something in your classroom and you want to see if it has an impact and you're looking at its correlation with grades, if your grades are fitting within a bell curve, it means that whatever you were trying had absolutely no impact whatsoever on student learning. Like that's the distribution of grades that you would get. What you really want to see is you want to see your bell curve skewed and skewed higher to show that what you've tried has had an impact. And that sort of stuck with me quite a bit. And every time I kind of look at data now, when I'm looking at data that we get, you know, on a school level or within my classroom, I'm looking for those skews.

Katie: 21:11

that's a powerful kind of bit of research there, or knowledge because we used to think that was the way to be and I know some universities still do bell curve, so it's fascinating.

Rachel: 21:21

Yeah, so I thought that was really interesting how he talked about bell curves and and that sort of just it sparked that that memory for me in terms of And I wish I could find the reference for it But it was just so good in that, you know If you're looking at your grade distributions and you're seeing a bell curve It means that you could have you could have basically done nothing and that's the way that grades would have been distributed.

Katie: 21:45

And I think the final question that he uses to end the chapter, I think it was a good way to kind of summarize what we've learned and also get us thinking about moving forward. And Feldman writes, Is our best thinking about effective teaching and learning thwarted by our century old grading? So it's saying, you know, taking a look at everything in the past and why things are set up as they were, etc. Is this the best approach? We know are different now. We often have great ideas. So taking a look at how this grading system impacts as we move forward.

Rachel: 22:16

Yeah, it's a great question.

Katie: 22:17

Ugh. Isn't it?

Rachel: 22:19

So I think that's a great place for us to wrap up our conversation today and we're just gonna kind of leave that question hanging out there for you to reflect on yourself and So what we'll do is we'll include any of the links or resources we talked about here today in our show notes You can access our show notes for this episode at edugals. com slash 134. That's edugals. com slash 134.

Katie: 22:43

And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to share it with a colleague or a friend. And don't forget to subscribe on your favourite podcast app, so that you don't miss out on any future content.

Rachel: 22:52

And as always, we'd love to hear from you, so especially your reflections on what we've sort of talked about today, because there, there was a lot in there in terms of what schools are like, and... What they're still like and what's changed and what really hasn't changed. So you can go onto our flip at edu gals.com/flipgrid and leave us a video message there. Or you can go onto our website@edugals.com and leave us a written response.

Katie: 23:19

Thanks for listening, and see you next week.