Let's Talk About Grading Practices - E130

This week, we are starting our book study with chapter 1 of Grading for Equity: What It Is, Why It Matters, and How It Can Transform Schools and Classrooms by Joe Feldman. Specifically, we will dive into what makes grading so difficult to talk about and even harder to change.

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Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/130**

• Grading for Equity by Joe Feldman
• Find a buddy to talk about the ideas in this book!
• Structure of the book:
  • 14 chapters
  • 3 parts - foundations, a case for change, equitable grading practices
• Get comfortable with being uncomfortable - try to stay open-minded
• Teaching is challenging - grades are one of the only places where we still have autonomy
• Grades and grading practices are highly personal
• Changing grades by admin
• Grading is not really something that is taught in teacher education programs
• Most grading practices are based on prior experience
• We hate grading! and grade grubbing!
• Stress around grading
• Mastery grading and specs grading and other equitable grading practices reduces stress around grades and grading
• Web of belief:
  • Shapes our teaching and grading practices
  • What is your starting position?
  • When we learn new info - we either dismiss or accept it (depends on how it fits)
  • Question your reactions 
  • What barriers are we creating with our grading practices?
  • Acknowledge guilt around past grading practices and then let it go
• Discussion question: What is your why?
  • Part of our UnGrading journey - Jesse Stommel
  • Building equity lens
  • Build on learning and justify changes to grading practices (where is the evidence?)
  • Entry points for grading conversations with colleagues

Transcript

Rachel: 0:41

In this episode, we are diving into chapter one of Grading for Equity by Joe Feldman.

Katie: 0:48

We will dive into what makes grading so difficult to talk about and even harder to change.

Rachel: 0:54

Let's get started. This week marks the first episode that Katie and I are diving into the book Grading for Equity. The subtitle is what it Is, why It Matters, and How It Can Transform Schools and Classrooms by Joe Feldman. And I have to say, I am so excited for this series.

Katie: 1:19

I agree. So I've read bits and pieces of it based on kind of what I've needed at the time, but I've never actually done a deep dive and I've been meaning to, and so Rachel and I were talking, we're like, why not? Why not do a book study? I. Do the whole thing. dive deep into the actual content and talk about it.

Rachel: 1:37

and this is the kind of content, and I think, we'll, we'll get into this a little bit later in the episode, but like you have to talk to somebody about the ideas in this book because if you just kind of do it yourself, like you can get so far with your own thinking, but. Talking it over, especially because we don't really talk about grades is so important.

Katie: 1:59

No, and so it's a little bit of a uhoh. Here we go. I'm going to give you the inner workings of my teacher brain and why I do things the way I do, but, and it's scary, but we're doing it because I think it's important.

Rachel: 2:12

Yeah, So this series, it's gonna go on for the rest of kind of our school year as we work our way through this book, and so we're kind of gonna work through it chapter by chapter because there's so much good information in here that we just really wanna do it justice.

Katie: 2:30

Yeah, I don't want to kind of gloss over anything because there's so much great learning. and it's kind of worth maybe mentioning the structure of the book a little bit to kind of give you a bit of a heads up as to what's coming, what you can expect, et cetera. so there are 14 chapters in the book. Which isn't too bad. You figure one, one chapter a week, we're good. and then there's three different parts and I think it's how he's divided the parts that is really kind of the meat and potatoes here. So part one is the foundations, which is the first two chapters. Um, and that's where he kind of goes into the basics of mark of grading, why we do things the way we do, et cetera. part two is a case for change. And this, I think, is going to be a very powerful book. Maybe some good reminders, some things to think about in terms of what we do, but it's to get us thinking about why we should consider changing our grading practices. and then last part, part three is half the book, seven to 14, and this is equitable grading practices. And so this is where he actually goes into how we can change our practices.

Rachel: 3:36

So much great stuff. And so let's just dive right into chapter one then. And so this is kind of laying the foundations and looking at our mindsets as we're, we're starting to talk about grading. So, uh, the chapter itself is called What Makes Grading so difficult to talk about and Even Harder to change. So I think before we kind of get into this chapter, I think it's worth us kind of mentioning like, What we talk about today might make you feel a bit uncomfortable as we talk about it, and that's okay. Like just kind of be aware of where your comfort level is, where your thinking level is, but try and stay open as well.'cause those grading conversations are so challenging to have.

Katie: 4:22

Yes. and it's, and it's one thing to have these conversations when. You are controlling that conversation and you're starting that conversation. It's another thing entirely when colleagues or administration or students or teachers are asking you. So by having these conversations ahead of time is starting to think about it, I think it helps you feel more comfortable in terms of what you do and how you do it and, and how you can share that with others.

Rachel: 4:51

So one of the, uh, the interesting points that really kind of struck me when I read this book and, and I hadn't, I don't know why I hadn't. Like, it's so, I don't know. It's so common sense in terms of the point he makes, but he does talk about, How teaching is is such a challenging career. Like we all know this, right? There's so many different aspects of it and we are told what to do in, you know, regulations and you know, what topics we teach. Like so much of our autonomy is really kind of taken away from us in teaching, but the one sort of island of autonomy we do have is grades and how we grade. And so that's why it's kind of that tricky. Subject because it's the one where we have a bit more power than we do in any other area of teaching.

Katie: 5:41

yeah, it's the only, otherwise like, let's be honest, everything else is so controlled and so you're right. And I think that's why it is so deeply personal or it feels personal when people wanna talk about our grading practices be because it is that one area where, It's who we are. It's, it's, it's our thinking, it's our beliefs, it's our everything and how we, we show that learning in our classroom and our expectations for learning in our classroom.

Rachel: 6:09

so there, there's some interesting sections here. He, he does talk about some different states and how it's actually written into some of the education acts and some of the regulations and languages where, Grades don't get changed. Like it's really kind of laid out in terms of where that autonomy is for the teacher. Now, I have to say here in Ontario, that's not the case. Grades do get changed, and that is so contentious when that happens. So at the end of a semester, They do, um, all of these, uh, they call'em promotion meetings, and so they'll call the teachers and usually bring them in in terms of the conversation, right? If, if they do wanna change a grade for a student, but sometimes you have no say in it.

Katie: 6:55

And that could be hard. And it really does create that division between, in that power structure, you know what I mean? Like it's the one thing we want the control over because we have the control over. Because nobody can tell me how to mark something, but then at the end of the day, they can. So it's, it can be very demoralizing to have that happen.

Rachel: 7:12

yeah, It's tough.

Katie: 7:13

Yep. I mean, at the same time, is 1% going to make a difference? Is 2%, like is that really going to change?

Rachel: 7:22

Yeah, and, and we'll definitely get into that when we start talking about grading scales. And we, we have a previous episode all about grading scales and rethinking your grading scales. And that one, 2%, like it really doesn't make a difference if you're on the a hundred point scale, but you know, because grading is so personal and it is your only sort of island of autonomy as a teacher that can, that can really, I don't know. Take a blow to your ego, right?

Katie: 7:49

Yep, totally. He also talks about how, and, and this is so true, and it made me think about a beginning teacher and what it was like when I first started, but. grading is never really taught to you in any of the Bachelor of Education programs or teacher programs. It's not something that is normally demonstrated or shown or explained. and so when you're first starting out as a teacher, you're going based on what you think the expectations should be, et cetera, the rubric you created, if you have one, et cetera. but it's not necessarily based on. Current grading and assessment and evaluation research that's out there. Uh, you're not necessarily, you could be, but most people aren't working with experienced teachers to, to get a better idea as to what grading should look like or sound like, or, or feel like, et cetera. Like based on what students are creating, you're very much just

Rachel: 8:40

just doing it on your own. and it's very much based on how you were graded as a student. Like that prior experience and that prior knowledge of how you were graded comes into play into, into how you end up grading your students.

Katie: 8:54

Agreed. And so if there are things that have been done to you, for example, marking participation, marking attendance, marking. Organizational skills, et cetera, then you may think that that's a justified way of grading students. And so we bring all of these prior experiences and perhaps inequities into our own teaching practices.

Rachel: 9:15

Now, how much do you like going back to teachers college? This, this is a while, but how much do you remember being taught about grading?

Katie: 9:22

I, I don't,

Rachel: 9:24

no, I don't either, which is why I am asking.

Katie: 9:26

We did some like lesson planning and unit planning and, but we never monitor moderated marking. We never did anything like that. There was no marking other than my practicum placements, but if I marked something, they just said, okay, go ahead and mark it. You do it. They weren't telling me how to or what I should look for or anything. It was just go ahead.

Rachel: 9:46

I think the first time I came across moderated marking is when I did my IB training,

Katie: 9:51

Yeah, agreed.

Rachel: 9:51

and that was like well into, actually teaching.

Katie: 9:55

Same here. And I think that was the first time that that even became a thing. and maybe like a year or two before where I was working with another Spanish teacher in the school and she was like, oh, I'd love to sit down with you and have you read something because I wanna know what you would market. And we actually started a conversation about grading and what I look for and what what she looks for. And it was actually like a. A powerful conversation because nobody had ever done that with me, and it was kind of neat to see how our brains work and how we interpret what's being given to us by our students.

Rachel: 10:26

Now, another interesting point he brings up here, and I I do wanna talk about this for a little bit, is that even though our autonomy, you know, with grading is, is kind of like the only piece we have to hold onto, we hate it.

Katie: 10:39

We do the amount of time that goes into grading and reporting and comments and all the rest, like it is frustrating.

Rachel: 10:50

It's not only that, it's like you are agonizing over. Okay. Is this four points? Is this three and a half points? Is this three points? You know, you're agonizing over what grade to assign. And you're also then agonizing about giving those things back, or at least I, I did. Right. Because when you give them back, then the students start, for lack of a better term, grade grubbing. Especially if you have some of those higher academic kind of classes where they're trying to as well, play the system and just get that extra half a mark out of you so that they could bump their percentage up. Right.

Katie: 11:26

Also, let's talk about IB grading and giving those assignments back, because that was like the most stressful days of my career teaching ib. Anytime I had to hand something back, I was like, oh, I'm waiting for it. I'm waiting for it. They're all gonna come back.

Rachel: 11:39

And yet last year when I did specs grading and I did mastery based learning, I got zero grade grubbing.

Katie: 11:48

Oh.

Rachel: 11:49

beautiful. So I, you know, obviously I am planning to continue forward that way. I've actually kind of laid it out a little bit differently this year. That's for another episode though. so I find like bringing in some of these equitable grading practices that we will be talking about throughout this series is going to really help with some of that grade gring and some of that hate for grading.

Katie: 12:13

and it, it does make me think like if, if I'm this stressed about it and my students are complaining so much, like obviously I haven't made the expectations very clear and I haven't made the process transparent enough because if there was that open communication, there would be less conflict or stress. I don't know. I don't teach IV anymore, so. I also love this concept, of the web of belief and how that plays into it. So this web of of belief is essentially all of our lived experiences, truths based on these experiences that we have as individuals, our prior understanding and learning. And, and how this shapes who we are as educators and our teaching practices and grading practices and, and even how we approach grading.

Rachel: 13:05

I love the web of belief too. I think this is actually a really great sort of exercise for you to do with your course team or with your department or your leadership team even, where you just get out what your web of belief is. Some sort of brainstorming kind of activity, right? Like what are all those beliefs that you have about grading? You know, do things like late marks, like do they matter to you? What? What about homework? What about participation? What about all the learning skills versus the academic content? Like where are your beliefs situated? Because I don't think you can really make really great change to your grading practices until you understand where you're starting from. I.

Katie: 13:50

and your web of belief and the, and kind of that set of beliefs you have, it really is going to influence even new learning and, and how you approach new learning and how you react. Because often it can be defensive to new learning. and, and it's important that we don't just dismiss new ideas. I think we need to think back and say, okay, what in my web of belief, what in the beliefs that I have about grading is making me feel so strongly about this and why?

Rachel: 14:21

Yeah. And so he, he does talk quite a bit about when we learn new information, like what it, what it does with our belief system. So if we, um, we learn a new piece of information, we might immediately dismiss it. Or we might accept it, and it depends on how well it fits within your web of belief

Katie: 14:40

Yes. And then he provides some great advice with respect to our web, web of belief and new learning. And it's, and, and the thing that stuck out to me, probably Just based on how I react to things and whatnot, is to be aware of your reactions to new information. Don't just react and not ever think about why you've reacted that way. If you're defensive it, it's important that you think about why, like why is that making me feel this way? Because there's a reason for it. And in order to be open to new learning and new ideas and. To be critical of our own teaching practices. I think these reactions are important to actually analyze a little more.

Rachel: 15:19

And I think that like it, it's not just grading, right? Like that's being a more equitable teacher and educator is being aware of when you have those reactions, because those reactions are coming from like a place deep down inside of some sort of belief you have and. Just by automatically dismissing it, you're not, you're not necessarily looking at all sides, which if, if you're trying to improve your equity lens, like that's not what you wanna do. Right?

Katie: 15:53

No, and it's, it's, it's even beyond equity. Even if it's like, maybe you wanna try a new teaching practice and then you hear about it and you're like, oh, I don't like this. I don't like this at all. Or anytime there's PD presented, whether you like it or not, or whether it's forced or not, you know, sometimes. it is being presented for a reason, some better than others, but it's worth kind of taking a listen and seeing what you can learn from it. Because let's be honest, yes, we're teachers and educators, but we're still learning as we go through our careers. Like learning doesn't stop as soon as you get that teaching degree and get into a classroom.

Rachel: 16:28

I think it's also worth kind of saying like it's still okay to have those reactions. Just recognize when you have them and know that, okay, if, if something's making me uncomfortable, then I have to dig a little bit deeper and understand why that's making me uncomfortable.

Katie: 16:44

And I sometimes think about, Hey, I feel really excited about this. Why, what am I doing right now that is making me see this? And like, get really excited because obviously I'm, I'm recognizing a need to change.

Rachel: 16:56

So I love the saying, get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Katie: 17:00

Oh yeah. Yeah. It can be hard, but

Rachel: 17:03

It is very hard. I try and live by it, but sometimes man, even I get like really uncomfortable and I am not comfortable with that.

Katie: 17:10

No, no, it can. Yes. It's hard, but it's good.

Rachel: 17:14

So, you know, as we, as we kind of go through this book and this book study, we are gonna see like that there are a lot of practices that maybe we've been doing in the past that are not necessarily equitable for students and that are actually creating barriers for our students and preventing them from achieving the pathways that they want to.

Katie: 17:37

I have nothing to add to that comment because that is a perfect summary as to why we even are diving into this book.

Rachel: 17:43

Yeah, it's, but um, just, again, like some of those things you're gonna go, but we have to, or if we don't, you know, grade every single assignment, then the students won't do the work or you know, like there's so many beliefs that we have about. Students and about learning and about grading that I think are just gonna, really get put into question here.

Katie: 18:10

Yeah. And, and part of me then goes back to this whole idea of the web of beliefs. Like, I feel like, um, if you're kind of on the fence, so you're not really sure as as, as you dive into a book like this, it's worth taking the time to sit down and. Brainstorm, what are your feelings about grading? What are things that should count? What are things that should not, what are the things you like? What are the fears you have about change? because then I think you're in a better place to approach a book such as this, uh, which might make you question and, and become defensive or unsure or angry at times because it happens. but I think it's important to go into it knowing. What your beliefs are?

Rachel: 18:51

I think one other emotion we do need to talk about is guilt.

Katie: 18:55

Oh, yeah.

Rachel: 18:56

And so, I've been on this journey of changing my grading practices for a few years now and learning all I can about grading, and when I kind of look back on what I used to do in my classroom versus what I do now, I do feel a lot of guilt. And I, I kind of look back and question some of the grades that my students ended up with in courses. And I'm like, does that really represent their achievement? And, and or have I put up this barrier now for them not being able to do what they wanted to do? Or I, like, you can start feeling a lot of guilt. About past practices, and I think what I'm trying to get to, to saying here is, yeah, it's there, but you kind of just move forward, like you have to move forward. It reminds me of this quote by Maya Angelou, where she, she talks about, do your best until you know better, and then when you know better, do better.

Katie: 19:56

I think that's perfect. And it's true. We do learn and so let the guilt go because it's done. It's over. You've moved on. you have a new set of students every year or every semester, whatever your system is. have a new fresh start, and I think it's important to let the past go and focus on doing better. so one thing I like about the structure of this book is at the end of each chapter, you're going to notice that they have a summary of the different concepts that have been discussed. and then there's also questions for you to consider. And with that in mind, there's actually a question that I thought was worth having us share with you, as we go through our learning. And that's question number three. If you have the book, what brings you to this book? What are your goals for reading it? How will the way you read it help or hinder you from realizing these goals? So I thought Rachel and I would share a little bit about, about that with you so that you. Also can kind of think about perhaps why you might want to consider purchasing the book or following along with our book study.

Rachel: 20:58

You know this, I'm trying to remember back because I have read this book a very long time ago, and I think what brought me to the book at the beginning was that I had heard, um, Jesse Stommel speak a few times about un grading. If you haven't heard him speak, I'll, I'll see if I can find some links to some stuff on YouTube by him, but, he talks a lot about UN grading and why grades can cause so much harm to students. And you know, it kind of led with that sort of learning along with, um, a lot of the equity kind of work that we were doing as a board that brought me to this book. And that was sort of my goal for reading it is I'm like, okay, how can. I take my past grading practices and bring that equity lens in and, and learn more because, you know, it's an area of my practice that I still need to learn.

Katie: 21:53

Yeah. And for me, um, I, I always go back to e s l, but, but I'm gonna go there again. I think teaching e s l has really changed me as an educator and, and how I approach things and, my belief system in terms of grading and teaching. and, and I think they have made me better as an educator and more open to the fact that learners in our classrooms are all very different. They are living different lives. They walk in with a whole lot that we don't get to know or see half the time and, and they've kind of opened my mind to recognizing that I need to change and, and I want to make my practices more equitable for any student walking through my classroom door, regardless of what. Their lives are like, or what they have been like, or what they will be like. So, I think my students have taught me a lot and softened me quite a bit in terms of my stance on grading. and that's what brings me to the book because I've been on and on grading journey and, and mastery-based learning and, and changing things up. But I, I don't feel like my learning is done and I think that I still have more. That I would like to change. yes, so my goal is to continue my learning, find some new strategies, also. Some of the research that has gone into this book, I think will be good in helping me to justify some of these changes and for those that need that justification, because let's be honest, sometimes you do. Um, and to also allow me to be more transparent and explain things to, to students, to families, to administrators, course teams, et cetera. and I'm hoping that my open-mindedness is going to help me. Approach this in an open way so that I'm taking the ideas and finding ways to apply them my classroom.

Rachel: 23:47

Yeah, I think my goals are very, very similar. And like I said, I have read this book before, but rereading it again and going through this book study. I think I'm kind of going through it now with a lens of where is that evidence that I can collect that. Yes, I can answer some of those questions that folks have for me whenever we're talking about grading or opening those conversations for grading and more. So where are the entry points that I can. Bring back to my department and my course teams to get them kind of thinking about grading practices and slowly shifting to more equitable ones.

Katie: 24:30

Yeah, so that's a little bit as to where we're at and an intro to this new book study that we're just embarking on, grading for equity.

Rachel: 24:39

So on that note, we will wrap up our conversation here today, and so you can access any of the links or resources we talked about here today in our show notes. You can access our show notes@edugal.com slash one 30. That's edu G a l s.com/one three.

Katie: 24:58

And if you like what you heard today, then feel free to share it with a colleague or a friend. And don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss out on any future content.

Rachel: 25:08

And as always, we'd love to hear from you, so especially like what are your beliefs around grading? What is. Your web of belief and you can feel free to share anything you want with us. You can do that on our flip at edu.com/flipgrid, or you can go onto our website@edu.com and leave us a written response.

Katie: 25:29

Thanks for listening and see you next week.