From The Archives: Asset Vs. Deficit Mindset - E080

In this episode, we are exploring asset vs deficit mindsets in education. We'll go over our observations as well as some of our ideas to shift away from a deficit mindset in our classrooms.
 
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Featured Content
**For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/80**

• Asset mindset - what are the strengths that our students bring to the classroom and how you can embrace that with high expectations
• Deficit mindset - what are students lacking and focusing on their weaknesses
• CRRP - High expectations, Cultural competence, Critical consciousness
• Grades contribute to a deficit mindset and don't give the full picture of the strengths of a student
• Ideas and Strategies:
  • Get to know students and don't look at past grades
  • Embrace first language
  • Google Sheets auto-translate words EduGIF from Jake Miller
  • Involve parents/families in school community - builds a positive school culture
  • Watch your language and avoid placing students into buckets (struggling vs striving, harmful language)
  • Destreaming is coming in Ontario for Grade 9 next year and needs asset mindset
  • Book: Going Gradeless, Grades 6-12 by Elise Burns and David Frangiosa
  • Becoming aware and speaking up against deficit language
  • Need PD on asset-based mindsets and language (peer conversations and dialogue, active learning, voluntary, accessing when ready, multiple opportunities, reflection)
  • Video: Asset vs Deficit Mindset Definitions
  • Recognize that our brains are wired for negativity to protect ourselves
  • Rachel's grading Twitter rant
  • Community and relationship building - conversations and conferencing with students, get curious about behaviours, collaborate with other staff
  • Avoid the silo and utilize the whole school team
  • Question your assessment practices, focus on personalized and descriptive feedback (tests = deficit, portfolios = asset for example), varied types, focus on skills

Transcript

Rachel: 0:25

Welcome to the EDU gals podcast. We are your co-hosts, Rachel Johnson.

Katie: 0:30

I'm Katie Atwell. We are here to bring you tips and tricks to help you integrate technology into your classroom.

Rachel: 0:39

In this episode, we are talking about asset versus deficit mindset.

Katie: 0:45

Yeah. So we'll go over some of our observations and then also share some of our ideas on how we can shift away from this deficit lens in education. Let's get

Rachel: 0:54

started. This week, Katie and I are here to talk a bit about. Mindsets and specifically the idea of an asset versus a deficit mindset in our classrooms. Yeah, so

1:14

we've

Katie: 1:14

kind of been chatting a bit and um, I think part of it is my master's course right now. Uh,'cause I'm doing education for students of refugee background, uh, and then also in my daily experience of teaching English language learners and this idea of how we approach students and how we kind of look at what they have to offer in a positive light instead of. What they don't have. And so it kind of, um, it, it's brought up a few discussions that we thought was worth

Rachel: 1:43

exploring. Yeah.'cause I think it's, it's not just our English language learners. There's so many different situations where I see this kind of language in this kind of mindset. So it's definitely a topic worth talking about. Yeah. So for

Katie: 1:57

those listening, I, I mentioned to my partner this morning what we were talking about, and he looked at me and he was like, What are you even talking about? What does asset versus deficit mean? So I, I kind of laughed. Um, he always makes fun of all of Ed, you speak, but essentially when you are. Um, approaching students from an asset based lens, it means that you're looking at what they're coming in with as a strength and how you can embrace that and help them move forward with high expectations. Whereas if you're approaching students from a deficit based lens, it means that you're looking at what they're lacking. So you're, you're seeing the weaknesses and not what they have to offer as strength.

Rachel: 2:39

Yeah, essentially this is C R R P, so culturally relevant and responsive pedagogy. And in fact, I was looking it up this morning'cause I, I wanted to make sure I got the three sort of areas of C R R P, right? So there's high academic expectations, cultural competence, and critical consciousness. And in within cultural competence, although I think it applies to all pieces of C R R P, they actually talk about having an asset-based approach. In your teaching. And so, yeah, like this is so important and it really is, is that mindset shift of what are our students bringing to the table and what strengths do they have and how can we leverage those in our classrooms versus focusing on the things that they can't do. And sticking them into those buckets of, you know, well, they're a struggling learner, or they're an English language learner, or they're a SPED student. Like, we can't do that.

Katie: 3:39

No. And, and I do want to say like, this isn't an attack on teachers.'cause to be honest, the way that the education system is set up, it is set up in such a way where it is so easy to look at the deficits versus looking at the whole student.

Rachel: 3:53

Oh, absolutely. The way that

Katie: 3:55

we communicate IEPs, Student success profiles, even like the step continuum for English language learners, it really does. You know, it gets teachers to focus more on what students can't do and maybe some of their weaknesses versus the strengths that we can then use in our classroom. So it is not an attack

Rachel: 4:15

at all. No. Even I'm, I'm thinking even greats. Grades are like really kind of based on that deficit mindset. Like docking marks from everything that a student doesn't know how to do in your classroom, or, you know, seeing that 80% on a report card means they don't know 20% of what is going on in your classroom.

Katie: 4:36

Even looking up a prior year's grade, like let's be honest, like why are you looking at last year's grade? Why not figure out where they're at now and what they know now and what they can bring to your classroom.

Rachel: 4:48

Yeah, and and that's one of the things that's really kind of changed in terms of my mindset going forward. Like I am, I will no longer look up grades for students in past years because those grades, they're just, they're. Okay, I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant here probably, but there's a snapshot in time of where a student was learning at that point in time. It doesn't mean that that's where they're going to be this year. And there, there's so many different extenuating circumstances and factors that go into what that grade actually means. It's just a number. I would rather go have a conversation with their teacher from last year and talk about. The strengths that the students are bringing to my classroom, I feel like that information would be so much more valuable. And, and

Katie: 5:38

we also have to remember that, you know, students do mature and they do get older over time and they do kind of figure out. How school works and, and how they fit into that structure. So, you know, we do need to give them time and give them space and the benefit of the doubt. So we need to do less of the talking about, you know, maybe some of the things they struggled with and instead just look at the student. Like when I, and this is gonna sound crazy'cause I teach E S L, but I don't look at their step levels for the first couple of weeks because I don't wanna know how somebody else has interpreted their language. You know, I take a couple of weeks to actually figure out where they're at individually to help inform my practice. And then, you know, sometimes I'll look back if I'm like, this seems off. What did the last teacher think? But even then, you know, I, I have a responsibility to teach the kid in front of me. I. And so it doesn't matter what some report

Rachel: 6:34

has listed. Yeah, I would say even thinking about, you know, those first couple days in my chemistry classroom and, and stuff that I would do, I had one activity that I still absolutely love and I use over and over again to, depending on the year, it's either who captured the chemist or who kidnapped the chemist. And it, it's really kind of like a logic puzzle that has students working in groups solving chemistry problems, and then each time they solve one, they get a clue towards solving the ultimate problem takes a full period, at least to do. And usually I have students working in small groups. And so from that activity, just on that first day of class, I learned so much more about where students are coming from, what their kind of background understanding is than ever looking at a grade I. Yeah. And so,

Katie: 7:28

you know, one of the, the pieces of advice that I typically give to, you know, mainstream content teachers, uh, with respect to ELLs, and I know it's very specific, but, you know, not all multilingual learners are in E S L programming. Uh, embrace their first language, embrace the home language, like they, why not let them brainstorm or do some of the rough draft in their first language? They're still demonstrating that thinking process, et cetera. And yes, You know, maybe it's not easy for you to understand, but you can quickly do a Google Translate with a photo, um, and it. Translates everything so you can at least see how they're doing in terms of, you know, that process, but, you know, embrace that first language and what they bring with them.

Rachel: 8:14

Absolutely. That was one of the key kind of things that was highlighted right at the beginning of when I took my AQ for teaching English language learners is, Making use of that first language and, you know, kind of looking back and reflecting on what I've done past practice. I, I, I've never really thought of that until I learned that myself. So yeah, brainstorming in first language for stress and first language, you know. It, it's, it's not a deficit that English isn't their first language.

Katie: 8:48

No. And, and there's so much that they bring to that, right? So I mean, it means that they have the ability to actually think and process these new concepts in multiple languages. That's actually really impressive. Uh, and I mean, the goal is to get them towards English, but you know, it's not going to happen overnight. And we shouldn't expect that to happen overnight. And, and students still have a right to learn content. Even though they may not have the same level of English as native born English speakers, so you know, I think it's important to kind of embrace it, let them work through it. And then help them build in those like explicit vocabulary lessons and skills, like help them attach the words in their first language to English, like as a science teacher, that is your specialty, Rachel, like you, you know, the academic, you know that vocabulary. So just kind of help them attach it. And then, you know, it makes a big difference. I'm not saying you don't, I'm saying as an example.

Rachel: 9:47

Oh yeah, no, I get that. And, uh, that, that kind of reminds me of that one edu gif that Jake Miller put out quite a while ago now. But how to use Google sheets to auto translate words like you could really easily set that up for any vocab in your courses and show, show your students how to do those auto translations. And, and that actually brings

Katie: 10:09

me to. The school culture because by embracing the multilingual learners that you have in your school community, you're actually showing that you value that cultural diversity and that linguistic diversity. And in doing so, You create a much more positive learning environment for all students, and, and that in turn brings about a more positive school community who embraces the differences instead of, you know, criticizing or insulting. I, I just think that, you know, if we have this positive school community, students are gonna be proud of who they are. They're gonna be more willing to share. And then it also creates an opportunity for parents to feel comfortable and involved in their students' learning. I. I don't know. I feel like that's lacking in for a lot of our parents who perhaps don't have the strongest English, but we need to see that as, you know, they're just a part of our community. Let's get interpreters, let's involve them still. Like let's not exclude families who can't communicate.

Rachel: 11:14

Yeah, I mean that, that really is the goal of education, right? Is building relationships and building a community and having those connections with not only your students, but also your parents within the school, outside of the school. So, yeah, I, I agree with all of that. It's actually,

Katie: 11:32

it's one of my big. Plans or projects for next year is I need to get more parent involvement and family involvement because I feel like parents aren't totally comfortable in the conversations I've had. But I think there's some really great ways to get to get parents involved and to get them to come into the school and kind of see. Where the learning happens and get comfortable with teachers and, you know, start to ask the questions that they have and see how their role as parents can help support their students. And, and that's really honestly, it, it may not seem as connected to asset-based lens, but it really is because that school culture informs how comfortable students are in your classroom and how brave they are to speak or use a term in their first language, or even to admit, That they are multilingual because some are so afraid to admit that.

Rachel: 12:24

Yeah. And that's a real shame. Yeah. I think when we're talking about this though too, it's, it's not just our English language learners. Like we, uh, you think about our students with special education needs, I. You know, they're not SPED students. They are students who require accommodation within our courses, and there's certain accommodations that will help them and will help bring out the strengths that they have and, and show off what they're able to do. Yeah.

Katie: 12:51

And I think there's a lot of learning that needs to happen to make sure that we're actually embracing these, the all learners really, and, and finding ways to see it from a strength-based approach. Because I think we're so quick to see what they can't do versus what they can,

Rachel: 13:07

and even thinking about de streaming next year. Yeah. And just some of the conversations and, and maybe I'm picking up on it more this year after, after a ton of learning that I've been doing around. UN grading, grade list equity, um, all, all of those sort of themes. But I'm hearing the language more and more that's really actually upsetting me and disturbing me. So, talking about in Ontario, we're, we're gonna be de streaming. All of our grade nine courses next year. Now most of them are gonna be adopting the academic curriculum. Science is going to a fully D streamed new curriculum. Math has already done that, but having conversations with people around the science D streamed course for next year. You know, just hearing the language like, well, what are we gonna do with the applied kits versus the academic kits? Ugh. And just even that, it's just, it's, it's really frustrating me and, and making me speak up and say like, we, we can't be thinking that way. We have to have high expectations that all of our students are gonna be able to succeed and achieve in, in these courses. And how are we going to then structure those courses to make sure that. We are meeting all of their needs. Yeah. We need to get

Katie: 14:26

rid of that, that language entirely. Like who, who are you to decide and label which student is an applied level learner and, and you, you know what I mean? Like, we're not streaming anymore. That's the whole purpose. We're not doing this. We're not going to limit their future possibilities because you think of them as an applied learner.

Rachel: 14:44

Yeah. And uh, one of the books I just finished reading, uh, called Going Grade List, it's David Franza and Elise Burns, Eloise Burns, I, I, I forget what the, uh, the other author's name, first name is, so I apologize. But they even talk about language in their book and instead of using the word struggling student, they use striving student. And I love that switch in language just automatically goes from that. Deficit mindset to an asset-based mindset. Yeah.

Katie: 15:16

And, and that is something we need to get better at, because I know in education traditionally we, we don't have that positive language, but that's a huge part in shifting the way we speak and the way we approach students is as simple as striving versus struggling. Like that's a great example.

Rachel: 15:33

Yeah. And that, that one, you know, every and every time I came across the word, I had to kind of stop and go, okay, like, I understand what this means and, and trying to rethink about it from an asset based mindset.'cause I'm still learning myself as well. I don't admit that I have all the answers and yeah, like it's, it's just, it's such a sh a shift. But now whenever I hear the word struggling student, it's triggering me and it's making me think like, The language we use, like this is actually harmful language for these students, and so we should be calling each other out on the language. Yeah.

Katie: 16:11

Hard to do, but it's, it's definitely needed and I'm, I'm guilty of it too. Like I've, I've used that deficit language quite often and not really realizing it. Right. Because it we're just, it's so ingrained in us.

Rachel: 16:24

Well, you think about like conversations that happen, work in workrooms and staff workrooms and just talking about different students and where they're struggling and stuff. Like the language that comes out can be pretty darn deficit based and I'm guilty of it. And now that I kind of think back on some of those conversations, I'm like, uh, you know,'cause I've, I've done a lot of learning since then. But yeah, I, I. I don't know. I think it's, it's just about bringing it up every time you kind of hear that language and, and saying something because it's the only way we're gonna learn. Yeah.

Katie: 17:00

And, and to be honest, it's, it's becoming aware of the language that is really the first step. So, so by identifying it and becoming aware when you're hearing it or when you're speaking it, that really is that first step towards changing the language and, and shifting to a more asset-based approach versus always looking at the struggle or

Rachel: 17:19

the weakness. Yeah, and so I think one really good clue that it's a deficit based kind of language is when you're sticking students into buckets like, oh, they're an E L L student, or they're a SPED student, or they're an applied kid, or they're, you know, they always struggle. Recognizing those buckets I think is probably a good first step in thinking about, well, oh no, wait. That's coming from a deficit based mindset. How can we switch it and flip it to an asset based mindset instead? No,

Katie: 17:53

definitely. We, we definitely need to stop putting them into these categories. I mean, there is sometimes a need for that, like when you're talking about funding, programming, et cetera. Sure, sure. But, but we can't be. Identifying students specifically in our courses based on perhaps an exceptionality. Yeah.

Rachel: 18:13

Like even think like, oh, they're not a science kid. Mm-hmm. They're not a math kid, they're bad at math. You know, like even that is, Coming from a deficit based mindset. Yep. Or

Katie: 18:25

they don't have what it takes to be in my course. Right. That happens, and I understand the frustration as a teacher, but I think that comes back to, you know, one of the things we need in order to encourage an asset based approach in education is professional development. We need targeted professional development to help teachers from where they are at. And give them the tools that can help them be more successful in reaching all

Rachel: 18:53

students. Yeah, and I think, you know, the, the approaches to that professional learning need to ch shift and change too, because we can't just, you know, all sit in a big room together and have someone talk at us about asset versus deficit mindset and language. Like it needs to, there needs to be good conversations and. You know, the, the, those discussions between colleagues and within departments, between different departments, it, it, it's the only way you can learn. I feel like there needs to be some sort of active piece of learning where you're looking at your courses and your materials and your curriculum and, and pulling out that language and, and really sort of doing that self-examination.

Katie: 19:40

Yeah, and it also, You know, it has, it has to almost be somewhat voluntary. Like if somebody is totally closed off to this type of professional development, you're just going to become more frustrated and they're just going to become more defensive. So I, I almost feel like. We have to give space to teachers to kind of figure out where they are at, give multiple opportunities, offer some like reflective type questions to get them thinking, but there needs to be a readiness as well. Yeah, and

Rachel: 20:11

I, and, and that is probably one of the, the big, big sort of issues with professional learning is. You know, someone from Higher Up decides this, that everybody is ready for this learning. And so we are going to do this learning on this day at this time. And that's it. And it, it goes back to mastery, right? Yeah. And so meeting

Katie: 20:36

people where they are at, yeah.

Rachel: 20:39

But. It. You're right. It does need to come from a place of readiness. And I think, I think, and I wonder, I, I think it kind of starts with just sharing little pieces of information and little learnings. Like I came across this one website this morning as we were before we recorded, and there's this like great two and a half minute video. Anyone can watch a two and a half minute minute video, or you could show it in a staff meeting or whatever. And it literally talks about what asset versus deficit mindsets are. And it was fantastic and it got me thinking about other situations and other scenarios. So I think even just providing those little prompting. Pieces of learning that, you know, don't take too long are not too intensive, but kind of, I guess kind of poke at, I don't know, different thinking. Yeah.

Katie: 21:35

And, and, and from there, I think what will naturally happen is you'll get those staff members who are ready for kind of the learning and making some changes and you work with them. And then I do think naturally, It will grow, like staff members will become ready as people are sharing, as people are kind of showing what they're doing, uh, and kind of sharing some of the good things that are happening. As a result, it's, it's not going to be overnight. I. Like I, I am very well aware that shifting from as or deficit to asset is going to take time. Yeah. For

Rachel: 22:12

sure. Katie and I are still learning. Yeah. And I still catch myself in a deficit mindset sometimes, and I have to stop myself and go, okay, no, wait, no, we don't. We don't, you know, we got, we gotta flip it and think of it the other way. We,

Katie: 22:28

we also are very much inundated with a deficit mindset in the media, in, you know, magazines, in terms of self-image, et cetera. There's always negativity in how we view ourselves, in how we view others around us. So being able to switch that professionally is super difficult because all of the messaging we receive is always about what's wrong with people or what's wrong with you. Versus what's great,

Rachel: 22:55

have you ever heard, and, and so that what you just said sparked this for me, is that our brains are actually wired for negativity because, huh? Our brains are designed to protect us and keep us safe. And so venturing out into something that's more unknown. And this goes back to like our caveman days, right? Where, you know, you, you get to learn your lay of the land and you know, where you're not gonna get basically eaten by a tiger, but venturing outside of that sort of area, you, you don't know. And it's unknown and it's uncertain. And so it, I don't, your brain continuously puts you back into that negativity kind of mindset. Naturally. Like this is part of our defense me mechanism to make sure and, and that we are protected and that we're safe. And it goes back to that prehistoric kind of, kind of time and our brains just haven't developed since then. That's fascinating. It is fascinating and, um, It's really kind of changed my outlook on, on a lot of things. Like I, I, I naturally focus on a lot of negative stuff and I, I will admit, like I do stress out very easily. I do get a lot of anxiety and just recognizing like, That this is my brain. Just trying to protect myself has done wonders for me in terms of, of changing my thinking and changing my outlook. It's like, oh, okay. Thanks brain. Thanks for telling me that. But that's not how it's going to happen. So just even recognizing that like I am definitely more vocal, I will speak my mind. Like I, I even threw out this rant on Twitter the other day about grades and, and what was on my mind. I never would've done that before. But yeah, I guess where I'm, I'm kind of going to is I think it starts with us. Just talking about it and, and pointing things out and, and saying something. No, definitely.

Katie: 24:55

And, and it will happen over time. The more you talk about it, it really will. And then it becomes part of your practice and then you share and then it becomes part of everybody's practice, hopefully. But, uh, yeah. That's, that's fascinating. I like that. I kind of, it helps me understand better my natural responses.

Rachel: 25:16

The brain is fascinating. I mean, we're coming from a science nerd perspective, right. But I, I do, I I do really find how our brains work and just really, really interesting. So,

Katie: 25:29

um, one of the strategies that I think. Is an easy one to do that anybody can do in any course is taking the time to get to know students. And we'd say this all the time, but community building, relationship building, learning more about each individual student to help inform your

Rachel: 25:50

practice. Yeah, and so thinking about that, then bringing in conversations more into even your assessment practices. So having those one-on-one conferences with students as as much as you can. I know they take a lot of time out of your class time, but they are so worth it. You learn so much more about your students. If you can just have a quick one-on-one conversation with them than from anything else. And,

Katie: 26:17

and sometimes, you know, when we look at students who are absent a lot or who aren't completing homework, et cetera, like some of that, you know, immediately we wanna go to the, oh, they're just skipping, or, oh, they're lazy, but you know, have that conversation with them. You would be surprised how honest they are and also what some of these kids are carrying on their shoulders. And they're walking in with on a daily basis because it's not all hunky dory, so to speak. Kids are struggling and dealing with a lot. Yeah.

Rachel: 26:49

Get curious, ask lots and lots of questions. You know, try, try and, it's almost like you're a detective, right? You're trying to figure out why, and, and so asking why is probably the best question. You can do,

Katie: 27:04

I mean like, don't prod too much.'cause if there's trauma underneath there, we don't wanna be a trigger. But at the same time, like just, you know, come from it, from a supportive versus, you know, an accusation lens. Talk to them. See how you can help. The more trust there is between a teacher student, the more willing they are to be very open and honest with what's happening in their lives. And then, you know, that can help you understand, you know, what you can do to support and perhaps. What other supports are needed in this situation, because it's not just on you as a classroom teacher. We have social work supports. We have, you know, certs, so special education resource teachers. We have the E S L lead if it's an English thing or something going on, et cetera. We, we have settlement supports, like we have so many different people available in our school community. To make sure students can be successful. Yeah,

Rachel: 28:00

and when I say get curious too, it also means not just asking the students questions, but going and talking to other staff members who have, who've worked with that student or currently working with that student. So like Katie's saying, reach out to the cert, if that makes sense. Or the e s l lead or their guidance counselor. They're a great resource and usually know a lot more about what's going on in that student's life than anybody else in the school. And they might not be able to tell you everything, which is fine, but they can at least give you some sort of hints or suggestions. Like, yes, this student is dealing with something very traumatic and you know, here's how I might approach it. And so you, you can get a lot of really, really VA valuable information just from having conversations with other colleagues in your building. Yeah. Like

Katie: 28:51

it, it is amazing how many people there are to support and, and there's, there's definitely somebody who can help you out. So don't, don't see this as a, a you problem alone. It really isn't like it's, it's. It's a community approach, and if we move away from these siloed centers, so to speak, within a school and see it more as a whole team approach, I think that. That also is a great way to start moving towards asset-based approaches and, and utilizing everybody on our team

Rachel: 29:21

for sure. Break down the silos. I see so many silos in education, even working in, in the coaching capacity at the board level. Like there's, there's little silos for, for equity and for special education and for curriculum and planning and just. Yeah, collaborating with other one another, breaking down those silos and really understanding what everybody is doing is so, so important. Yeah. We all have something

Katie: 29:50

to offer and you know, often when I reach out to guidance or somebody else and they give me a different perspective, I'm like, oh yeah, I should try that. You know, I should shift that a little bit and see how, you know, it's, we all really do have a lot to offer to one another.

Rachel: 30:05

So I think another sort of area that you could kind of key in on and and focus on in terms of thinking more from an asset based mindset is around your assessment and around your assessment practices. Um, so focusing more on descriptive feedback that is helpful for students than just whether something's right or wrong and

Katie: 30:28

making it tailored to them. So, You know, if you know of a strength that they have that perhaps they could use to improve, you know, access that so often, I'll tell my students, um, You didn't quite get the understanding of this word, but you know this, so let's kind of build from here. So use the language, you know, uh, use your first language, I don't care. Um, but it's just tailoring feedback in such a way that allows students to really improve and, and access what they do know and what their strengths are to get better.

Rachel: 30:58

I think it's also questioning about the type of assessments you use as well. So, I, I'm kind of thinking, you know, giving a, a test, a test actually is really kind of based on a deficit mindset. You know, how much do the kids remember or know, or like, how can I trip them up and see if they really understand it or not? And I. So building that test, actually, uh, and, and I might, I, I don't know if everyone agrees with me out there, but it, it's based on finding the deficits in what kids can't do versus what they can do. Whereas if you created something like a portfolio, I. That's definitely more asset based. It's how much have they learned, how much have they grown over the course of time?

Katie: 31:41

Yeah, and I also find some tests are very rote based, like it's very memorization based, which, let's be honest, that doesn't show if they understand a concept. So like for my history, I did history for English language learners. We actually did interviews. We had conversations about history and, and how we can see these events reflected in today, and it was amazing the conversations that we had, and I know I wouldn't have been able to get those details and that thinking process if I had limited it to

Rachel: 32:12

writing. Yeah. Even a few years ago I was. Kind of playing around with project-based learning in my chemistry classroom and we had students design their own chemical batteries and then their, their sort of showcase days was showing their battery off, um, seeing if it could power a calculator for 30 seconds. That was their challenge and having a, a conversation with us and to discuss to. Us what was going on with the chemistry behind it. And those conversations were so much richer. I mean, we still ended up having a unit test after, but the unit test, like thinking back on it now, that was so useless and so pointless. Fine. They need practice with that. Those kinds of questions.'cause it wasn't IB course and so, you know. Ib, 80% of their grade is based on writing a test, which is ridiculous in itself. But yeah, like thinking back on that now, I learned more about their understanding of those chemical concepts from those conversations than I ever did from their test. It reflected on their tests, which was great.

Katie: 33:20

Yeah, no, so I, I think it just goes to show that we need to kind of. Change how we assess and you know, maybe perhaps do a whole bunch of different versions, like don't always stick to writing. You know, give some speaking opportunities, maybe even like a recording, they can record themselves or create something, get something that gets them interacting with the material more. Even

Rachel: 33:41

looking at courses and the way that assessment is broken down and laid out in Ontario curriculum, like for science courses, knowledge and understanding is, Maybe 15% of the final mark, so okay, fine. There's your rote learning, there's your understanding of concepts, your tests, quizzes, whatever else, but 15% of a hundred percent of your mark. The rest of it is based on skills and building skills and building critical thinking and problem solving and all of that, like other great stuff that goes into your courses.

Katie: 34:18

Yeah, I, I think it's just rethinking it, getting out of that traditional. Assessment mindset and finding ways to, to really pull on the strengths of our students and, and get them talking and thinking and interacting more. Okay.

Rachel: 34:31

Well, I think that's a great place for us to wrap up our conversation today. And so what we'll do is we'll include any of the links or resources we talked about here today in our show notes. You can access our show notes for this episode@edugals.com slash 80. That's edu G a ls.com/eighty.

Katie: 34:53

And if you like what you heard, feel free to share it with a colleague or a friend, and don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss out on any future content. And as always,

Rachel: 35:02

we invite you to leave us feedback, so you can go on to our flipgrid at edu.com/flipgrid and leave us a video message there. Or you can go onto our website@edugals.com and leave us a written

Katie: 35:17

response. Thanks for listening and see you next week. Thanks for listening to this episode of our edu GS podcast. Show notes for this episode are available@als.com. That's E D U. G A l s.com. We'd also love to hear your feedback, so leave us a message on our website,

Rachel: 35:44

and if you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe and consider leaving a rating or review on your favorite podcast app. Until next time, keep being awesome and try something new.