Harnessing Cognitive Principles To Elevate Your Teaching - E127
Jun 20, 2023Episode 127
Rachel Johnson
This week, we are helping you harness the power of cognitive principles to elevate your teaching practice. In this final instalment of our book study, we'll explore how we can leverage all of our learning from Daniel Willingham's book "Why Don't Students Like School" to help us become the best teachers that we can be.
If you like what you hear, we would love it if you could share this episode with a colleague or friend. And make sure you subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new content! And consider supporting the show by buying us a coffee or two!
We would love to hear from you – leave a comment on our website OR check out our FLIPGRID!
Featured Content **For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/127**
This week, we are helping you harness the power of cognitive principles to elevate your teaching practice. In this final instalment of our book study, we'll explore how we can leverage all of our learning from Daniel Willingham's book "Why Don't Students Like School" to help us become the best teachers that we can be.
If you like what you hear, we would love it if you could share this episode with a colleague or friend. And make sure you subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new content! And consider supporting the show by buying us a coffee or two!
We would love to hear from you – leave a comment on our website OR check out our FLIPGRID!
Featured Content **For detailed show notes, please visit our website at https://edugals.com/127**
In this episode, we are gonna talk about teaching practices, how it's a cognitive skill and how we can get better.
Katie:
So we are taking on Daniel Willinghams final chapter in Why don't students like School and Flipping the Tables and looking at Ourselves.
Rachel:
Let's get started. This week Katie and I are gonna wrap up our book study that we've been doing for the past several months now on the book, why Don't Students Like School by Daniel Willingham?
Katie:
Yes, it's, and it's kind of a neat way to cap it off because in this final chapter he talks about educators and so he kind of flips it a bit and makes us think about all of his cognition we've been learning about, but with respect to our own teaching practice and us as individuals. So, it's great. It's a great way to end it because it's a great way to kind of take all this learning and focus on students and, and kind of put it on ourselves.
Rachel:
It definitely had me thinking quite a
Katie:
my goodness. Yes. And like there are some things where I'm like, oh, I should start doing that, but I won't get into that until we kind of start from the very beginning.
Rachel:
Yeah. So before we do dive into that though, we, we do need to talk a little bit about summer and what's happening on the podcast because Katie and I are gonna do something a little bit different this summer.
Katie:
That we are. So this will be our final episode and then we're taking a bit of a break, not final like in our podcast ever, but perhaps I should say final of this school year. Uh, We're gonna take a bit of a break, but then we're going to come back in the middle of August. Um, One thing that is going to be happening though, and I think that it's worth sharing now in case you wanna do this book study alongside us, is we're actually going to do a book study of grading for equity. And that's the, the resource by Joe Feldman. So for any of you listeners out there who are interested in kind of being more critical of grading and rethinking your practices feel free to pick up this resource. And then you can kind of follow along with us, send us some comments as we release, et cetera. Yeah, we'd love to interact with you about this resource.
Rachel:
I am so excited for that book study. I love this book. I've read it before, but I'm so excited to go through and take a really deep dive about grading and our grading practices and how to create grades that are more bias resistant. And, uh, so we've been talking about doing this one for a while and. I think that's gonna carry us through, through most of next year. We'll have episodes sporadically throughout the school year to kind of support you as you go on your learning journey with us.
Katie:
And perhaps if we're organized enough, what we can do is put out a schedule so you know when to anticipate the, uh, the release of the episodes, and then that way you can kind of, you know, figure out how much you need to read and when, and then along.
Rachel:
Yeah, so we'll be taking our summer to organize that and to organize our podcast in general for the next coming school year, and also taking some, I think, much needed time for rest and relaxation.
Katie:
Yes, I'm exhausted. I know we've said this already, we had a whole episode dedicated to it, but we are very tired, so we are going to take some time just to kind of work on getting our brains back and getting our bodies back and, and kind of refreshing, so to speak, so that we're ready for September.
Rachel:
yeah, and we'll be putting out past episodes over the summer, so there'll be still be things to come back and listen to. And then we'll dive into the new content in August, I think August 15th is gonna be our first one.
Katie:
So there you go. Stay tuned and enjoy your summer breaks.
Rachel:
All right, so let's just uh, get right into this chapter. It's called What About My Mind?
Katie:
so at the beginning of the chapters, he does like a question and answer, and then the guiding principle. And normally we don't really talk about the answer so much or the question, but I kind of feel like his answer is important and I think it guides that chapter just as much. And so the question was about essentially, what about the minds of teachers? And his answer goes back to like chapter one and how he outlines the cognitive requirements for how, how students can think effectively and all the different principles and requirements. But he's now kind of flipping it on its head and saying, remember all these things you've been learning about, well, now you're gonna shift that focus away from the students in the classroom. And you're gonna think about your own processes. So I like that intro as a way to kind of reframe my mind and say, oh, I could go back to my chapter one notes and those things I was saying about students. I just need to rethink them differently and how they affect me.
Rachel:
I think it's a, a wonderful lesson and it, it, it is a nice way to kind of go back and go, okay, now how does this all apply to me? And so, yeah, it, it really, really got me thinking. And so that kind of leads us then into the guiding principle for this chapter, which is teaching. Like any complex cognitive skill must be practiced to be improved.
Katie:
How powerful is that statement,
Rachel:
Yeah, totally.
Katie:
right? And so this, I think right off the bat, I was like, whoa. I love it. And it, it kind of had me thinking a little bit and, and we do call teaching a practice, but he then dives into more specifics about practice and what that looks and sounds like, and kind of gives us some criteria, which I thought. I think it's a really good reminder because you can't just go through the motions, the same motions every year. That's not necessarily practiced.
Rachel:
I really love how the, the entire conversation is framed here because, It really does give you a really nice blueprint on how to be a better teacher.
Katie:
Oh my gosh. Yes. And there are things where I'm like, oh, I need to get better at this as I was reading through. And so he talks about how. You know, research shows that teaching is very demanding of working memory, and we know that we've already passed our highest point of memory capacity and all those great things we wish we still had. But this means that it, it is a demanding profession and we need to make sure that we have enough knowledge and a knowledge base, et cetera, and. That we're, I don't know, balancing things well and just finding strategies to, to be effective.
Rachel:
I think it's important to keep in mind, like if you are a new teacher listening to this podcast, like if you are in your first five years of your career, then you are not only trying to figure out and make sure you have all your factual knowledge about your courses that you teach. Like your subject matter knowledge. You also have to get really good at pedagogical content knowledge. So like how do you teach your subject and how do you, what are the miscon common misconceptions that students have? And then also all of those different procedures that you use in your classroom. Like all of that stuff needs to be stored in long-term memory. So while you're doing that, everything else is kinda, I guess not gonna be maybe, I don't know, be the best or it's gonna take a little bit longer to come along because you are so entrenched in learning all of that first.
Katie:
and he mentions that, you know, content knowledge, while it is required, is not enough to be an effective teacher. You really do need to build up that whole idea of the pedagogical content knowledge, and it's that balance of both of those things that help you become a good teacher.
Rachel:
I think even now if I teach a new course, it probably takes me a couple of go throughs to really understand where those misconceptions are.
Katie:
And where those difficulties are, like I approach thinking differently and learning differently than my students do, like everybody does. So like how can I make it accessible and how can I make it easier for them to grasp these concepts?
Rachel:
I've been teaching for years and, uh, just teaching grade nine science this year. It's my first time teaching grade nine science in my career, which sounds ridiculous, right? But. Going through it that first semester, like I made lots of mistakes. I'm still making mistakes at this point in my career and not fully understanding like how to approach teaching certain pieces of content that maybe I'm not super comfortable with. And, I've learned so much this year and grown so much this year just from teaching that new course. So I think it's, it's um, I guess what I'm trying to say is it's important to know that, that that's gonna happen throughout your entire career, and it's okay.
Katie:
Oh my gosh. Yes, and that's normal. Don't worry. You always feel like you're learning.
Rachel:
Yeah, totally. I think that's where some of the imposter syndrome comes in then in education, right? Is like you, you constantly feel like you're, you're an imposter standing up in, in front of your class sometimes,
Katie:
Yeah. Like, I never feel like the expert ever. So then he dives into this idea of deliberate practice. So it's not just going through the motions year after year, after year. it's actually about intentionally making changes to your teaching practice. So he has five different characteristics that I think are worth sharing. The first one is you pick one small feature of this skill that you know you don't do very well, and you try to improve it. Setting a specific goal, so not just saying get better at it. You need a goal, you need something to kind of work towards words. Number two, as you practice, you get feedback from someone at least as knowledgeable about this skill as you are. Number three, you push yourself outside your comfort zone. You try new things. Number four, you find deliberate practice mentally demanding, and candidly not fun. Number five, you engage in activities that contribute to the skill indirectly. Let's talk about these.
Rachel:
I love, love, love all of these, and oh, I can see so much of all of these things in so many books that I've read and so much of the work that I did as a instructional coach over the last couple of years. I think if you wanted to like really dive into some of these resources, Jim Knight's a great one. He has lots of great books on coaching and, getting really good at this. And then even the uh, Google certified coach program goes through this as well. There's, there's so many great resources, but I love. Picking just one small thing and then setting a very specific goal around that and working on that and, and working with somebody on it.
Katie:
I'm gonna call you out on this because what you did in grade nine was not picking one small thing.
Rachel:
sure. It was, we went on grading and mastery based learning. That's one small thing.
Katie:
Uhhuh. So I'm calling you out on that one because that was certainly not one small thing. You took the whole thing and you threw it up in the air and redesigned it completely.
Rachel:
Fair enough it, but it was prime time to do that with that course because we had a curriculum change. It was the opportune time to just turn it upside down on its head. And that's what got me really excited about coming back into a classroom and coming back to my school and coming back into my leadership role was being able to just like, shake things up and, and stir things up a little bit.
Katie:
I'm not saying you're wrong for doing it. I'm saying you say pick one small thing, but you're a bit of a hypocrite.
Rachel:
I did develop, when I was doing coaching work though, the idea of teaching sprints and I never really got this going cause I didn't really, with Covid and with not being able to be in schools very much and then trying to just build relationships with schools, like, it was very, very challenging to get into schools and do the work with teachers. But my idea was that you come together with a group around a specific topic and then you pick. A small goal. You craft that and then they go away, try it in their classroom and then come back together and you kind of discuss it. So you do these like little teaching sprints and it comes from a book called, I think Sprint. It's written by people who used to work at Google and, and do all this uh, venture capital work now and. Do these sprints with big business companies. I'm like, Ooh, this is really cool. Like I'd love to do this with teaching. So it's a neat way for you to come together, I think as like a team come up with something small, you wanna try and then go try it and even go watch each other and get into each other's classrooms if you can.
Katie:
And so with that in mind, I think you've just kind of summarized the second one. So getting feedback from someone at least as knowledgeable about the skill as you are. So doing it in course teams is ideal because they have that same knowledge and you can go through it together.
Rachel:
Even if you just grab your teaching bestie and it doesn't even need to be the person that you work with at your school. Like I think a lot of what even Katie and I talk about on the podcast here is ways for us to get feedback from each other on what we're doing in our classroom and building our skills that way.
Katie:
Yeah, agreed. And, and it really doesn't matter who they are, it's just another person to kind of watch you and give you a perspective you can't pick up on while you're teaching.
Rachel:
And, um, pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone.
Katie:
I laughed. I have been out of my comfort zone all year.
Rachel:
And, uh, so sometimes, sometimes you push yourself outta your comfort zone. Sometimes you need someone to give yours, to give yourself a little bit of a shove.
Katie:
Yes. and I think that's where a lot of our growth happens. And I, I know it's uncomfortable and it sucks when you're not doing things you're comfortable with, but I think that's where you learn a lot about things that work and don't work and, and changes you need to make.
Rachel:
Well, you also like it. It is very challenging on you and and on your mindset as you're kind of going through it, because there will be people who will push back against your ideas. I can tell you there have be many people who have pushed back about what we're doing with our grade nine science course or what I am doing in terms of my grading practices, in my IB chemistry courses, and you just kind of have to. I don't know. It's, it's really challenging to get through that and just constantly coming back to your goal and coming back to your why, I think helps you to push through those challenges. But it can be like really mentally draining.
Katie:
Yeah, which is the next point too. It's mentally demanding and. Not fun. And it is, it's exhausting. And sometimes you're like, why am I doing this to myself? But even like our mix levels this year, it, it was so. Stupidly hard, but I see the benefits and that's what I have to keep on reminding myself is yes, it's hard, but the more I practice and the more I kind of make these changes doesn't have to be big, but um, it, it does get easier and, and the benefits are there and it is happening and I see it. So I just have to remind myself that it won't always be this exhausting.
Rachel:
And that's, it's exactly why we need to take a little bit of a break from recording and, and the, the content kind of grind that we go through each week to produce this podcast cuz we have both gone through a very mentally demanding school year.
Katie:
And the last one, engaging in activities that contribute to the skill. Indirectly. Well I wonder if my master's is part of that
Rachel:
I would definitely say it's part of it.
Katie:
Yeah, I'm learning a lot about language acquisition and theories and practices and my current course language assessments. So how we assess for language proficiency and build assessments, which was the most fascinating course ever. Cuz I actually got to see like construct validity and all of these things about assessments and, ah, I'm nerding out and I apologize, but I think that that's really helped me too, and I think that's, I think that knowledge, that new knowledge I'm building is helping me become better.
Rachel:
And those activities don't need to be related to education.
Katie:
No, you're right.
Rachel:
For example, I like I read a lot, we know I read a lot and I'm really into reading. Even business books, and I get so many great ideas from business books like the one I talked about earlier, right? With Sprint. I get so many great ideas from those business books to bring into the classroom and ways that kind of can support either my grading practices or mastery based learning or something else in there as well. And so I think engaging in. Really anything outside of the classroom, you are gonna learn pieces because your brain is set up to, if you're thinking about a particular thing, your brain is set up to be primed, to be looking for that particular thing in, in many other different places.
Katie:
and I think one of the big things is so many people have said to me, why are you doing this? Why are you doing all of these things? Because you're just gonna burn out And I think that you even, part of what he talks about in this chapter is making sure that you make space for relaxation and you're intentional in, in finding that downtime. but sometimes it, it is going to be exhausting to make incredible changes in programming and student outcomes. So I, I, I would say don't necessarily listen too much to the naysayers or those who are more about saying comfortable and, and, and push yourself, but know your boundaries, right? Know. That you need to make sure you are intentionally building in time where you can relax and do things that bring you joy because it can't all be about
Rachel:
Yeah, I've been, I, I've been called so extra so much because of everything that I do, and part of it is just, I just have this like, love of learning and I wanna learn just anything and everything. And I love engaging my mind and, and thinking about things and, and trying to come up with new ideas. And so, Part of it is like, it is kind of a hobby to me, I guess, in a way. And it is relaxing sometimes for me to engage and just watching, I don't know, a bunch of YouTube videos about setting up a blog, you know, and, and stuff like that. Like, it's all just stuff I like to learn and like to really kind of engage with. But then I've, I get little tidbits where I'm like, Ooh, I could use that in my classroom.
Katie:
Yeah, learning is big. I don't know why I find it so enjoyable. I, I often joke with my husband that maybe I should just be a professional student. He doesn't find it quite as funny. But, um, no, I love to learn and I think I, I've gone a little bit like different in terms of what I'm learning cuz like taking the violin and doing music lessons, like that's, that fills another bucket for me cause I enjoy music and whatnot. So, so it's not all education based for me, but you're right, there are still like skills and things that you do when you're learning anything that can be applicable to the classroom.
Rachel:
For sure. So the next sort of section goes into a little bit more detailed about getting and giving feedback. And so he, he sort of details and, and outlines some steps that you can follow. Where you're kind of working with one other person and giving each other feedback. And the reason he kind of outlines these steps is because. When you are getting into giving feedback about your teaching, like teaching is so, so personal and so you don't want to have your ego hurt or hurt someone else's ego as you're kind of going through it. So I, I like the steps he outlines because it, gives you like a, a nice sort of structure to work through and get through some of that feedback and, and get some really valuable. Ideas without necessarily stepping on each other's toes.
Katie:
Yeah, and it's going to be scary. And some of these suggestions even I was like, I was super uncomfortable. And, and so once you find your person, like record yourself and watch yourself teaching, this one made me feel like, oh, I don't know if I could do that. I don't know if I would behave the same way, knowing I'm being recorded as I would normally, I don't know.
Rachel:
am not a huge fan of recording myself teaching either.
Katie:
Right.
Rachel:
I don't know if that's partly because we're very introverted and so we, yeah. We just don't wanna see it anyway. I understand. You can, you can grow enormously from seeing yourself teach and seeing yourself in action in the classroom. But I don't know that one, that one's pretty scary. It is something though that Jim Knight talks about a lot in, in his instructional coaching books, so I think some of these ideas are probably kind of coming from, from that sort of direction.
Katie:
but like a lot of it is about like watching videos of other teachers and wa watching each other and watching yourself and, and I understand why watching myself would help me get more comfortable because then I can see my own. areas of room for improvement and then it's not somebody else telling me those things for the first time, cuz I see it myself. So it gives you kind of that time to reflect on your practice and, and some of your behaviors or things you say or catch things that you may not notice because you're just forging ahead with your lesson or, or interacting with other students at the time. So I can see how it's a useful tool. I don't know how to make that work in practice. Because there are challenges, like he does mention volume, you may not be able to pick up everything. And then the idea of putting microphones around the classroom, which makes me uncomfortable.
Rachel:
Even though we sit in front of a microphone every single week.
Katie:
I know. Which is funny to me. But yeah, no, it's, it's interesting. And even the logistics, making sure I can get parent support for that. Because I wouldn't want to make families uncomfortable and, and make them feel like their child is being recorded for their behaviors because it's all about me. It has nothing to do with that.
Rachel:
Yeah, so once you've kind of watched yourself, after you recorded yourself, if you can get past that stage, then the next sort of step or or piece in this framework is with your partner. You go in, then watch recordings of other teachers, so not each other. You could go to YouTube and just search for whatever topic or. Maybe classroom issue that you're looking for, and then as you're kind of watching, have a concrete goal for watching. And then as you're sort of making those comments and suggestions and observations that you're keeping them factual and that you're also saying them in as a supportive way as you possibly can.
Katie:
Yeah, and I think that's, I, I always kind of scoffed at this idea of make sure you give so much positive feedback embedded in with negative feedback. But then when I'm thinking about it, especially in this chapter, I'm like, oh, I think I understand this a bit more now because it would, it would hurt me a lot to only have negative. So you need that, that balance, and I get it.
Rachel:
Yeah, I totally get it too. And I love the idea of going and watching other teachers first because this then gives you that deliberate practice with giving feedback without it being too personal yet.
Katie:
Yes, exactly. So I, I actually think that this is easier. Like, I think I could watch videos of other teachers and, and with my teaching partner and then kind of better at that aspect.
Rachel:
Yeah, I, I totally could do this step.
Katie:
And then the next step, watch each other's videos and, and give feedback. But one thing he does say is don't do this until you feel really comfortable with the step previous.
Rachel:
I think that one goes without saying.
Katie:
Yes. Yes. So get super comfortable criticizing people you don't know before you do it with somebody you do know.
Rachel:
Mm-hmm. Another important thing is that the teacher whose video is being watched should be the one to set the goal, and then any of the comments and suggestions made are focused solely on that goal and not anything else that you're noticing.
Katie:
Totally. And, and that's very important. You don't want every single thing to be picked apart. Pick one thing at a time.
Rachel:
No.
Katie:
And then just bring it back to the classroom. So what was noticed, the feedback you were given, find ways to make those changes and, and be more aware of what is happening.
Rachel:
Yeah. So it's a great framework to set up if you're willing to find someone, like find someone that you're really, really comfortable with and go through the process with each
Katie:
Now there was something he said that really kind of stuck out to me. And it was probably just as an overall, but I think it's worth sharing. If you want to be a better teacher, you can't expect that improvement is a natural and unavoidable consequence of this experience you gain with passing years. And I think that's more of an overall comment to the chapter and to our teaching practice. But, I think it's an important reminder that you're not just gonna get better because you're teaching every year. You need to make changes and you need to be purposeful and, and there does need to be some critical looking at our teaching practices and how we can improve.
Rachel:
Yeah, I really got that from this chapter as well, and. You don't get better if you're, if you're not intentional about it. And I think that's why our school boards, and I, I th I would say this is a common practice everywhere, is they have you set an annual learning plan or some sort of goal setting at the beginning of the school year. And while we kind of like, you know, scoff at it and like, oh, this is ridiculous. Why are we doing this? Why do we have to do this every year? I think the purpose of it at least is, is, is meant to be meaningful and it's meant to be personal. It's meant to help you grow as a teacher.
Katie:
I just wish there was more than just setting a goal. I wish that there was some follow up and some conversations and some feedback so that it's not just a goal, but it's a plan of action, so to speak.
Rachel:
Yeah. The only time we get feedback, at least on our goals, is if we're in a evaluation year, and that only happens once every five years. So I got to, cuz I had an evaluation this year. This year I got to actually talk about my goals and. Get into them a bit more and get suggestions and feedback from my administrator, but I don't get that every year.
Katie:
Mm-hmm.
Rachel:
And I would say I've grown more just from getting those suggestions this year than I do in most years.
Katie:
Yeah, and I think that's a challenge. I wish. Yeah. So if anything were to change in education, I wish these, these annual learning plans or goals were actually more meaningful and constructive.
Rachel:
I mean that is it's a time thing. It, it always comes down to finding time and so I understand why it's not, but I think if we really want to have meaningful change in our schools, we have to find a way to make the time. And it's not just like not making the time just on teachers, but like our administrators need to be able to find the space for that time to have conversations with their staff.
Katie:
and I think the school boards need to find. development opportunities that align with the goals of teachers, because I think that's important too. And yes, you can seek your own pd, but it's not always paid for. And that makes it challenging too.
Rachel:
Yeah. It can be a little, I guess superficial when you set goals for yourself and then there's no PD that aligns with it all year
Katie:
Yeah. And so then it's like, well, that was my learning goal.
Rachel:
I guess there there goes a ear.
Katie:
Yeah.
Rachel:
the final section that um, he kind of goes into in this chapter is all around self-management. And so just kind of being aware of taking care of yourself as you go through and try and bring in new changes. So it's gonna be extra work and because it's new, It means that you're not gonna be on autopilot, that you're not relying on those, that long-term memory or your habits that you've built around it. So it is going to be draining and you are gonna spend more time on teaching.
Katie:
Yep. And that's exhausting.
Rachel:
so there is one quote. He says, remember that you don't need to do everything at once. It's not realistic to expect to go from wherever you are now to Great. In a year or two.
Katie:
Yeah, that puts it into context. Like we're, we're looking at the long game here, like change isn't gonna happen overnight and you're not gonna be great, right? Like, we need to take the time to, to slowly build the skills, change our practices, get them implemented, and hone those changes to make them them better.
Rachel:
so sort of his big advice here is prioritize what's important, create those small, manageable goals, work on it year after year. Eventually you'll get there.
Katie:
and I kind of think that that's the nature of education, right? Like we're constantly making changes based on the kiddos in front of us and their needs and skills, et cetera. And it's always going to be different. I think it would be very rare to teach the course the same way year to year. I think there's always going to be something that has to change.
Rachel:
Oh, absolutely.
Katie:
I, I haven't hit a year where I can repeat my course, that's for sure. Um, I think one last thing to kind of share, and it's not about this chapter, it's actually in the conclusion, but they actually have a table that goes chapter by chapter and breaks down. The cognitive principle that is being discussed or, or dissected in that chapter. Required knowledge about students, so things you need to know about the students in front of you, and then important classroom implications. So the most important classroom implication for that particular principle. So if you're looking for a quick little summary and idea as to um, what the book is about and what you need to, to kind of. Take advantage or, or use that cognitive process to its potential, then that's kind of where you can take a look. But overall, love this book.
Rachel:
It's been a really awesome book, and I love that we've done a really deep dive in it on the podcast.
Katie:
Yeah, it's been so fascinating and it's really made me rethink. A few things that I, well, a lot of things that I do, let's be honest, it's certainly worth the read. So if you haven't read it yet, feel free to take a look. We'd love to hear what you think.
Rachel:
And so on that note, we're going to wrap up our conversation here today, and we'll include any of the links or resources we talked about here today in our show notes. You can access our show notes for this episode@edugals.com slash 1 27. edu G A l s.com/ 1 27.
Katie:
And if you like what you heard, then feel free to share it with a colleague or a friend. And don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app so that you don't miss out on any future content.
Rachel:
And as always, we'd love to hear from you. So have you been following along in our book study? What have you learned? What's your big takeaways? Go on to our flip at edu gals.com/flipgrid and leave us a video message there. Or you can go on to our website@edugals.com and leave us a written response.
Katie:
you for listening. Have a great summer and we'll see you in August.